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Author Topic: Artur Dias - Hungary v England  (Read 1219 times)

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bmb

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #15 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 12:09 »
In relation to the penalty, as is said in Australia... a soft boiled egg is still a boiled egg.
The booing by the Hungarian children is disgraceful but sadly not unexpected in eastern Europe where racism appears to be alive and virulent. 

As long as a soft boiled egg is given to everyone then there is no discussion, unfortunately it is too inconsistent,  more so with referees of lower competence .

Ah big team bias towards the mighty Magyars obviously then 🙄
« Last Edit: Sun 05 Jun 2022 12:32 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

charlieboy

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #16 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 12:37 »
In relation to the penalty, as is said in Australia... a soft boiled egg is still a boiled egg.
The booing by the Hungarian children is disgraceful but sadly not unexpected in eastern Europe where racism appears to be alive and virulent. 

As long as a soft boiled egg is given to everyone then there is no discussion, unfortunately it is too inconsistent,  more so with referees of lower competence .

Ah big team bias towards the mighty Magyars obviously then 🙄
nope no bias and I haven't seen anyone infer it either, just a lack of consistency with regards to the soft boiled egg !
My views are my own and not that of rate the ref .

bmb

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #17 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 13:00 »
In relation to the penalty, as is said in Australia... a soft boiled egg is still a boiled egg.
The booing by the Hungarian children is disgraceful but sadly not unexpected in eastern Europe where racism appears to be alive and virulent. 


The booing was very disappointing to put it mildly but the taking of the knee is seen as more of a political gesture than anything there and when the prime minister makes statements such as we only kneel before god and the woman we are proposing to it comes as no surprise. My son has never once experienced racism in Hungary (or Slovakia, Romania, Latvia and Serbia actually). He goes out and about with his friends in Budapest with absolutely no fear of receiving racial abuse, including to games, both club and country. Yet he gets some racial abuse at least once every month or 2 in England and other than to travel to uni he stays at home because doesn't feel safe in England. 

I look forward to similar comments from you condemning every English club the booing occurs at week in week out during the football season and the racial abuse thrown at players week in week out.

Racism is wrong wherever it happens but let's not try and pretend it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem, there is a far bigger problem with it in England than there. England fans have booed the taking of the knee far more times than has happened in Hungary, they have booed several other National Anthems, they sing songs about German bombers when playing Germany. They have no room to talk about other fans being disrespectful. Eastern Europe is more xenophobic than racist, not that that is any better but it's true. Depending on which country you are in they care more about which country you are from than the pigmentation of your skin. Hungary love the Slovaks and Polish but hate the Romanians, everyone hates the Serbs apart from the Romanians who tolerate them etc. I might get some 'bozgor' comments in Romania, if they hear me speaking Hungarian, so might bmb jr but his colour would not come into it at all. In Hungary I have been asked if I am Roma because I have similar colouring to the Roma population, that would have bought me untold abuse if I was Roma. I'm not saying there is no racist abuse in that region, the right wing ultras sadly show it is alive and strong there in places but it is more confined to football terraces than in society at large. It is a global problem though and not just confined to Eastern Europe.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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PhiltheRef

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #18 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 15:53 »
Whilst out having a pint last night I was understandably challenged over the penalty.

Not, as I expected, it having been given but how, in the opinion of my supping colleagues, SG1 Officials had allowed players to feel able to do what James did and get away with it.

Entitled overpaid prima donnas was I seem to remember the phrase used to describe them
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TVOS

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #19 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 19:17 »
In relation to the penalty, as is said in Australia... a soft boiled egg is still a boiled egg.
The booing by the Hungarian children is disgraceful but sadly not unexpected in eastern Europe where racism appears to be alive and virulent. 


The booing was very disappointing to put it mildly but the taking of the knee is seen as more of a political gesture than anything there and when the prime minister makes statements such as we only kneel before god and the woman we are proposing to it comes as no surprise. My son has never once experienced racism in Hungary (or Slovakia, Romania, Latvia and Serbia actually). He goes out and about with his friends in Budapest with absolutely no fear of receiving racial abuse, including to games, both club and country. Yet he gets some racial abuse at least once every month or 2 in England and other than to travel to uni he stays at home because doesn't feel safe in England. 

I look forward to similar comments from you condemning every English club the booing occurs at week in week out during the football season and the racial abuse thrown at players week in week out.

Racism is wrong wherever it happens but let's not try and pretend it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem, there is a far bigger problem with it in England than there. England fans have booed the taking of the knee far more times than has happened in Hungary, they have booed several other National Anthems, they sing songs about German bombers when playing Germany. They have no room to talk about other fans being disrespectful. Eastern Europe is more xenophobic than racist, not that that is any better but it's true. Depending on which country you are in they care more about which country you are from than the pigmentation of your skin. Hungary love the Slovaks and Polish but hate the Romanians, everyone hates the Serbs apart from the Romanians who tolerate them etc. I might get some 'bozgor' comments in Romania, if they hear me speaking Hungarian, so might bmb jr but his colour would not come into it at all. In Hungary I have been asked if I am Roma because I have similar colouring to the Roma population, that would have bought me untold abuse if I was Roma. I'm not saying there is no racist abuse in that region, the right wing ultras sadly show it is alive and strong there in places but it is more confined to football terraces than in society at large. It is a global problem though and not just confined to Eastern Europe.

I don't think anyone was pretending it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem, but this thread is about a game played in Hungary last night, which was meant to be behind closed doors, yet which a loophole was found allowing children and their parents to attend. The subsequent booing of the England players, whether by the children or their parents, clearly is a Hungarian problem, which is the point being made.
« Last Edit: Sun 05 Jun 2022 19:19 by TVOS »
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bmb

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #20 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 20:04 »
I don't think anyone was pretending it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem, but this thread is about a game played in Hungary last night, which was meant to be behind closed doors, yet which a loophole was found allowing children and their parents to attend. The subsequent booing of the England players, whether by the children or their parents, clearly is a Hungarian problem, which is the point being made.

Article 73 of UEFA's disciplinary regulations states that certain exceptions can be made, including "children up to the age of 14 (duly accompanied) from schools and/or football academies."   It's not children and parents, it has to be school groups and children who play for football academies accompanied on a 1 to 10 ratio by teachers and academy staff. Approval has to be sought from UEFA with a list of schools & academies provided to them prior to the invitations so they can check they are genuine. The same 'loophole' England are using for their closed behind doors match v Italy.

England fans have booed their own players taking the knee way too many times to count, at club and country level, so no it is not a Hungarian problem, it is far wider than that. Gareth Southgate has appealed for Englands own fans to stop booing it several times. Yes it was Hungary fans yesterday, and I have made it clear I disagree with them doing so, but it is not just a Hungarian problem and that is the point. It has happened in other countries with other fans including Englands own fans.  You say you "don't think anyone was pretending it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem" and then say "clearly is a Hungarian problem" which completely contradicts the first part. If it was clearly a Hungarian problem then it wouldn't happen in England or anywhere else would it?
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Readingfan

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #21 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 20:25 »
Yes, there was certainly a lot of booing by England fans when the England players took the knee before some friendlies before the Euros last summer. A lot of leading politicians refused to condemn it and some even seemed to support it.

England's game V Italy next weekend was ordered to be behind closed doors after the Euro 2020 final trouble but I think I heard this weekend that free tickets would similarly be given to some schools and so on.
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TVOS

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #22 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 20:48 »
I don't think anyone was pretending it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem, but this thread is about a game played in Hungary last night, which was meant to be behind closed doors, yet which a loophole was found allowing children and their parents to attend. The subsequent booing of the England players, whether by the children or their parents, clearly is a Hungarian problem, which is the point being made.

Article 73 of UEFA's disciplinary regulations states that certain exceptions can be made, including "children up to the age of 14 (duly accompanied) from schools and/or football academies."   It's not children and parents, it has to be school groups and children who play for football academies accompanied on a 1 to 10 ratio by teachers and academy staff. Approval has to be sought from UEFA with a list of schools & academies provided to them prior to the invitations so they can check they are genuine. The same 'loophole' England are using for their closed behind doors match v Italy.

England fans have booed their own players taking the knee way too many times to count, at club and country level, so no it is not a Hungarian problem, it is far wider than that. Gareth Southgate has appealed for Englands own fans to stop booing it several times. Yes it was Hungary fans yesterday, and I have made it clear I disagree with them doing so, but it is not just a Hungarian problem and that is the point. It has happened in other countries with other fans including Englands own fans.  You say you "don't think anyone was pretending it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem" and then say "clearly is a Hungarian problem" which completely contradicts the first part. If it was clearly a Hungarian problem then it wouldn't happen in England or anywhere else would it?

But LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, which was the original point being made from the first time it was mentioned on this thread. You have taken it in a different direction because of your affiliation to Hungary.

When I said I didn't think anyone was pretending it was just a Hungarian/European problem, I was referring to racist issues in general across the game worldwide, not specifically what happened LAST NIGHT. There was no contradiction whatsoever on my part and I'm disappointed you think so.

So I'll say it again, LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, in particular with children being accompanied to the game by adults, regardless of which school, club or team they represent.

What does or doesn't happen in England or other countries does not alter what happened LAST NIGHT. If it does happen in Munich or at Molineux next week, then that's a discussion for a different day and a new thread.

Personally, I don't agree with taking the knee at any match; it's been done to death now, we even have to see it before the main game on every episode of Match of the Day, with the commentators constantly repeating why the players are doing it.

All of us know why they are doing it and I'm not really sure what purpose it serves anymore, especially when some fans are using it to voice their disapproval. Is it really necessary to show it on a highlights programme every week?

That, though, is my own personal view. I would never choose to boo it or condemn those who want to take the knee, because I respect their own choices, but when it gets a reaction like it did last night, is it really working?
« Last Edit: Sun 05 Jun 2022 21:17 by TVOS »
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ajb95

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #23 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 21:57 »
I don't think anyone was pretending it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem, but this thread is about a game played in Hungary last night, which was meant to be behind closed doors, yet which a loophole was found allowing children and their parents to attend. The subsequent booing of the England players, whether by the children or their parents, clearly is a Hungarian problem, which is the point being made.

Article 73 of UEFA's disciplinary regulations states that certain exceptions can be made, including "children up to the age of 14 (duly accompanied) from schools and/or football academies."   It's not children and parents, it has to be school groups and children who play for football academies accompanied on a 1 to 10 ratio by teachers and academy staff. Approval has to be sought from UEFA with a list of schools & academies provided to them prior to the invitations so they can check they are genuine. The same 'loophole' England are using for their closed behind doors match v Italy.

England fans have booed their own players taking the knee way too many times to count, at club and country level, so no it is not a Hungarian problem, it is far wider than that. Gareth Southgate has appealed for Englands own fans to stop booing it several times. Yes it was Hungary fans yesterday, and I have made it clear I disagree with them doing so, but it is not just a Hungarian problem and that is the point. It has happened in other countries with other fans including Englands own fans.  You say you "don't think anyone was pretending it is just a Hungarian/Eastern European problem" and then say "clearly is a Hungarian problem" which completely contradicts the first part. If it was clearly a Hungarian problem then it wouldn't happen in England or anywhere else would it?

But LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, which was the original point being made from the first time it was mentioned on this thread. You have taken it in a different direction because of your affiliation to Hungary.

When I said I didn't think anyone was pretending it was just a Hungarian/European problem, I was referring to racist issues in general across the game worldwide, not specifically what happened LAST NIGHT. There was no contradiction whatsoever on my part and I'm disappointed you think so.

So I'll say it again, LAST NIGHT was a Hungarian problem, in particular with children being accompanied to the game by adults, regardless of which school, club or team they represent.

What does or doesn't happen in England or other countries does not alter what happened LAST NIGHT. If it does happen in Munich or at Molineux next week, then that's a discussion for a different day and a new thread.

Personally, I don't agree with taking the knee at any match; it's been done to death now, we even have to see it before the main game on every episode of Match of the Day, with the commentators constantly repeating why the players are doing it.

All of us know why they are doing it and I'm not really sure what purpose it serves anymore, especially when some fans are using it to voice their disapproval. Is it really necessary to show it on a highlights programme every week?

That, though, is my own personal view. I would never choose to boo it or condemn those who want to take the knee, because I respect their own choices, but when it gets a reaction like it did last night, is it really working?

Hear hear

Whistleblower

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #24 on: Sun 05 Jun 2022 23:19 »
This may seem like counting angels on a pinhead but I think it is better to say such conduct is a widespread problem which in this instance found its expression with some Hungarian spectators. When hooliganism was rife in the 1980s it was often described as an " English disease " I took great exception to that  statement for two reasons. First because really bad hooliganism was also taking place among supporters who had no connection to England and secondly because I did not wish to be associated with such a given national trait as the word English encompasses all people who are from and of England. By all means say it is a problem for the football authorities in Hungary caused by some Hungarian spectators and if there is sufficient evidence either way go on to opine that it is a problem which is or is not been adequately addressed.

I genuinely see the value of nuance here but if others don't, then so be it.
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bmb

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #25 on: Mon 06 Jun 2022 00:01 »
is it really working?


Simply - no.  I understand the point and agree with it but it stopped working the minute the BLM social movement that started out with such good and valid intentions, was hijacked by extremists who call for defunding the police and whatever else it is they scream about. At that point it just became divisive and the original good intentions were lost. Abroad there are the cultural differences to also contend with. Several clubs have stopped doing it now because it has become so divisive.

Culturally Hungary has a huge xenophobic problem, as does the rest of Eastern Europe, that stems back centuries with all the border disputes over the past 1000 years or so. The Trianon treaty (signed 102 years ago yesterday so a big day in Hungary) put that into writing with enforced border changes that led to millions of Eastern Europeans (3.3 - 5 million Hungarians) living in a different country to the day before it came into force. Very few of those countries did, and still to this day do not treat the ethnic other nationalities in their country very well to say the least, despite that being a condition of the treaty. Ethnic cleansing has been going on ever since hence the very strong xenophobia. Hungary hate the Romanians because of the dreadful treatment of ethnic Hungarian Transylvanians and Székelys, they in turn hate the Hungarians over their dreadful treatment of the Roma. The Yugoslav war just intensified it, everyone but the Romanians hated the Serbs and the ethnic cleansing that went on during that period, and there's a lot of left over anger and hatred from just 30 years ago when that went on. They simply do not understand the whole racism issue because it is not an issue in their own country amongst the general population at large. 99% do not care what colour you are but do care strongly about where you are from. The taking of the knee there is seen as western Europe trying to enforce its beliefs onto them where these same hatreds do not exist in the first place. That is what they are reacting to, the method of the message rather than the message itself.

Personally I think it is doing more harm than good now but like you I would never boo anyone (or abuse anyone) who wishes to use it to demonstrate no to racism. I actually prefer what our players do, they have a slight pause and then point to the respect badges on their shirts, with their heads bowed. I can guarantee if England did that in Hungary as their gesture they would receive applause.
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Ashington46

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #26 on: Mon 06 Jun 2022 12:24 »
is it really working?


Simply - no.  I understand the point and agree with it but it stopped working the minute the BLM social movement that started out with such good and valid intentions, was hijacked by extremists who call for defunding the police and whatever else it is they scream about. At that point it just became divisive and the original good intentions were lost. Abroad there are the cultural differences to also contend with. Several clubs have stopped doing it now because it has become so divisive.

Culturally Hungary has a huge xenophobic problem, as does the rest of Eastern Europe, that stems back centuries with all the border disputes over the past 1000 years or so. The Trianon treaty (signed 102 years ago yesterday so a big day in Hungary) put that into writing with enforced border changes that led to millions of Eastern Europeans (3.3 - 5 million Hungarians) living in a different country to the day before it came into force. Very few of those countries did, and still to this day do not treat the ethnic other nationalities in their country very well to say the least, despite that being a condition of the treaty. Ethnic cleansing has been going on ever since hence the very strong xenophobia. Hungary hate the Romanians because of the dreadful treatment of ethnic Hungarian Transylvanians and Székelys, they in turn hate the Hungarians over their dreadful treatment of the Roma. The Yugoslav war just intensified it, everyone but the Romanians hated the Serbs and the ethnic cleansing that went on during that period, and there's a lot of left over anger and hatred from just 30 years ago when that went on. They simply do not understand the whole racism issue because it is not an issue in their own country amongst the general population at large. 99% do not care what colour you are but do care strongly about where you are from. The taking of the knee there is seen as western Europe trying to enforce its beliefs onto them where these same hatreds do not exist in the first place. That is what they are reacting to, the method of the message rather than the message itself.

Personally I think it is doing more harm than good now but like you I would never boo anyone (or abuse anyone) who wishes to use it to demonstrate no to racism. I actually prefer what our players do, they have a slight pause and then point to the respect badges on their shirts, with their heads bowed. I can guarantee if England did that in Hungary as their gesture they would receive applause.

I too think that it does more harm than good, however, I just stand by and watch silently and that is the end of it.
May I ask, bmb, if the media in Hungary, Romania etc., go right over the top about this whole thing as the English media have done once again this weekend. Channel 4 talked and talked about this at half time, the British press has been full of it blah, blah, blah.
Do the Hungarian and Eastern European press criticise the English players for taking the knee or do they ignore it? Are they responsible for encouraging the fans to boo this practice? In other words, are they trying to manipulate things exactly as the British media strive to do?

Referee's decision used to be final!
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bmb

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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #27 on: Mon 06 Jun 2022 13:33 »
I too think that it does more harm than good, however, I just stand by and watch silently and that is the end of it.
May I ask, bmb, if the media in Hungary, Romania etc., go right over the top about this whole thing as the English media have done once again this weekend. Channel 4 talked and talked about this at half time, the British press has been full of it blah, blah, blah.
Do the Hungarian and Eastern European press criticise the English players for taking the knee or do they ignore it? Are they responsible for encouraging the fans to boo this practice? In other words, are they trying to manipulate things exactly as the British media strive to do?

They don't so much criticise it but they don't understand it either (the gesture not the message) and there will be the odd comment about 'why do they refuse to respect our culture and try and enforce their ideologies that we don't need onto us' or 'why do they always try to bring politics into the game, we're here for the football, not their politics' type of thing but it will be a singular throw away comment. A couple of lines at most. Any other comment about it is about the British media asking if they actually watched the game or were just there to try and impose Western views onto Eastern Europe. 99.9% of any reports, verbal or written, have been about the game itself. High praise for Loďc Nego in particular, who has been given the MOM by I think every media outlet. Lots of talk about how exciting this squad is to watch and how young the majority of them are and therefore talk about are they the new mighty Magyars & are we seeing the glory days start to return. Focus on Ádám Szalai and the fact he's about 90, wondering how much longer he can go on, what a huge influence he is and who can possibly replace him when he retires. Praise for Marco Rossi and the general consensus this was the best game of his tenure so far and what a fantastic coach he is but why do we always lose 27-0 v Albania. Our sports journalists write and talk about the football, the game itself, the stats etc. as you expect to be able to read in a sports report and our political/news journalists don't see it as anything worth even mentioning.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Re: Artur Dias - Hungary v England
« Reply #28 on: Mon 06 Jun 2022 14:21 »
I too think that it does more harm than good, however, I just stand by and watch silently and that is the end of it.
May I ask, bmb, if the media in Hungary, Romania etc., go right over the top about this whole thing as the English media have done once again this weekend. Channel 4 talked and talked about this at half time, the British press has been full of it blah, blah, blah.
Do the Hungarian and Eastern European press criticise the English players for taking the knee or do they ignore it? Are they responsible for encouraging the fans to boo this practice? In other words, are they trying to manipulate things exactly as the British media strive to do?

They don't so much criticise it but they don't understand it either (the gesture not the message) and there will be the odd comment about 'why do they refuse to respect our culture and try and enforce their ideologies that we don't need onto us' or 'why do they always try to bring politics into the game, we're here for the football, not their politics' type of thing but it will be a singular throw away comment. A couple of lines at most. Any other comment about it is about the British media asking if they actually watched the game or were just there to try and impose Western views onto Eastern Europe. 99.9% of any reports, verbal or written, have been about the game itself. High praise for Loďc Nego in particular, who has been given the MOM by I think every media outlet. Lots of talk about how exciting this squad is to watch and how young the majority of them are and therefore talk about are they the new mighty Magyars & are we seeing the glory days start to return. Focus on Ádám Szalai and the fact he's about 90, wondering how much longer he can go on, what a huge influence he is and who can possibly replace him when he retires. Praise for Marco Rossi and the general consensus this was the best game of his tenure so far and what a fantastic coach he is but why do we always lose 27-0 v Albania. Our sports journalists write and talk about the football, the game itself, the stats etc. as you expect to be able to read in a sports report and our political/news journalists don't see it as anything worth even mentioning.

Many thanks for the information which is more or less what I thought.
It will be interesting to see what transpires when England play Germany on Tuesday. Sadly, football is used as the vehicle to court controversy and there will always be a minority of fans who are unable, or unwilling, to see the folly of their ways and just jump on the bandwagon.
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