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Author Topic: Arsenal v Leicester City  (Read 1157 times)

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Deanspen

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Arsenal v Leicester City
« on: Sun 13 Mar 2022 17:01 »
Comforting to see that the 4th official is policing the technical areas with appropriate due diligence……apparently they now seemingly must extend much much further than was ever previously envisaged by the white demarcation lines. Basically go where you like.

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TheThingFromLewes

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A TAYLOR - Arsenal v Leicester
« Reply #1 on: Sun 13 Mar 2022 17:44 »
Taylor to the monitor… looks like a penalty and a possible red card for Soyuncu.

Edit… Taylor gone yellow… player on the line saved his bacon by the looks of it.
« Last Edit: Sun 13 Mar 2022 17:45 by TheThingFromLewes »

Joecphillips

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Re: A TAYLOR - Arsenal v Leicester
« Reply #2 on: Sun 13 Mar 2022 18:02 »
I’d say he got it right, player on the line saved him there

Conkernut

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #3 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 09:10 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.

Leggy

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #4 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 10:35 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.


Possibly to debate the possible red card?  Did the handball slow the flow of the ball enough for the man on the line to defend, or would he have defended regardless?  The outcome was that he have defended regardless, hence the yellow (not red) card.

ARF

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #5 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 10:57 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.
It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural position, hence the OFR.

Readingfan

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #6 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 11:12 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.
It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural position, hence the OFR.

Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation, regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed. Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.
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Leggy

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #7 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 14:40 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.
It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural position, hence the OFR.

Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation, regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed. Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.


That contradicts what dermot said on Sky's Ref watch today.  He said the handball was a "matter of fact" and the OFR was to determine the personal sanction.

bmb

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #8 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 15:19 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.
It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural position, hence the OFR.

Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation, regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed. Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.


That contradicts what dermot said on Sky's Ref watch today.  He said the handball was a "matter of fact" and the OFR was to determine the personal sanction.

I'm not convinced handball is a simple matter of fact.  There is the factual element in whether the ball makes contact in the green not handball area or the red handball area but even if it is in the red area it's not necessarily an offence within the LOTG dependant upon other criteria. Was the arm in a natural position - is that 100% factual or is there an element of subjectiveness? Was the player making themself bigger - I'd say probably factual but again is there a degree of subjectiveness? If the ball hits a players arm when he is on the floor & is being supported by his arm - that's considered accidental but then does how close his arm is to the body come into play? It could be right by his side or it could be a lot further out if he is at an angle. Does it then become subjective as to if his arm is supporting him or is considered in an unnatural position? If his arm is moving away from his body on the ground because of the way he is falling/has fallen still natural or is it considered moving his arm towards the ball?  If he's put his hands out to stop himself from face planting into the ground - is that a natural position or not? IMO, handball is not 100% factual because there are too many factors to consider particularly in terms of what is or isn't an offence when the ball hits the arm in the red area. Determining if x, y, z criteria have all been satisfied to reach the conclusion of yes handball offence or no not an offence under the LOTG make it more of a subjective decision in my book. What I see as a natural position for the arm when jumping, for example, someone else may see as unnatural and an attempt to make the body bigger. I would personally go as far as to say the only time handball is 100% factual is when it is in a green no hand ball area because there are no added ifs and buts.
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nemesis

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #9 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 16:14 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.
It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural position, hence the OFR.

Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation, regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed. Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.


That contradicts what dermot said on Sky's Ref watch today.  He said the handball was a "matter of fact" and the OFR was to determine the personal sanction.

I'm not convinced handball is a simple matter of fact. 
...


Of course it isn't  ......  thanks to the pig's ear the governing bodies etc have made of the law and guidance, seemingly tacking on bits as they go along in attempt to justify the latest almighty error by their on-field officials and even worse by the VARs.
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bmb

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #10 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 16:28 »


I'm not convinced handball is a simple matter of fact. 
...


Of course it isn't  ......  thanks to the pig's ear the governing bodies etc have made of the law and guidance, seemingly tacking on bits as they go along in attempt to justify the latest almighty error by their on-field officials and even worse by the VARs.

Are the errors caused though by the pigs ear the authorities have made with the Law?  They keep tinkering with it in an attempt to make it more clear or to clarify it but all they end up doing every single time is muddying the waters further. I don't think anyone really understands what is and what isn't handball anymore because of the 50 point checklist now involved! Bit like offsides used to be simple and now have a more complex checklist of criteria. Handball never had the issues it does now before they decided to complicate, I mean clarify it and then complicate, I mean clarify it further and then finally to complicate, I mean clarify it even further... 


edited to fix the quote thingamajigga!
« Last Edit: Mon 14 Mar 2022 16:32 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Readingfan

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #11 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 17:05 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.


Possibly to debate the possible red card?  Did the handball slow the flow of the ball enough for the man on the line to defend, or would he have defended regardless?  The outcome was that he have defended regardless, hence the yellow (not red) card.

I don't think that's quite what he said. He said that 'clear and obvious' didn't really apply to the aspect of whether the ball had hit the hand/arm because that would be regarded as a matter of fact, once the relevant footage had been examined. I think he then said it took a particularly long time because the sanction needed to be considered. I can't think of a single example, apart from the era when PL refs weren't using monitors a few seasons ago, where a penalty has been given for handball without a OFR.

Ref Watcher

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #12 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 17:28 »
On the plus side VAR resulted in a the correct decision being made and the correct sanction being applied.

bruntyboy

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #13 on: Mon 14 Mar 2022 20:31 »

What was the reasoning behind sending AT to the monitor for this one? Surely it was a straightforward factual decision that the VAR should have been able to make.
It's still subjective as to whether the hand was in an unnatural position, hence the OFR.

Yes, I'd always expect an OFR in this type of situation, regardless of which league or competition. The referee has to make a judgement on whether an offence has been committed. Obviously that judgement might be pretty clear cut and a quick and straightforward decision after viewing the replays at the monitor but it's not the sort of thing I'd ever expect a referee just to rely on VAR input for. That's pretty much just things like non-subjective offside and in/out of the penalty area.


That contradicts what dermot said on Sky's Ref watch today.  He said the handball was a "matter of fact" and the OFR was to determine the personal sanction.

I'm not convinced handball is a simple matter of fact.  There is the factual element in whether the ball makes contact in the green not handball area or the red handball area but even if it is in the red area it's not necessarily an offence within the LOTG dependant upon other criteria. Was the arm in a natural position - is that 100% factual or is there an element of subjectiveness? Was the player making themself bigger - I'd say probably factual but again is there a degree of subjectiveness? If the ball hits a players arm when he is on the floor & is being supported by his arm - that's considered accidental but then does how close his arm is to the body come into play? It could be right by his side or it could be a lot further out if he is at an angle. Does it then become subjective as to if his arm is supporting him or is considered in an unnatural position? If his arm is moving away from his body on the ground because of the way he is falling/has fallen still natural or is it considered moving his arm towards the ball?  If he's put his hands out to stop himself from face planting into the ground - is that a natural position or not? IMO, handball is not 100% factual because there are too many factors to consider particularly in terms of what is or isn't an offence when the ball hits the arm in the red area. Determining if x, y, z criteria have all been satisfied to reach the conclusion of yes handball offence or no not an offence under the LOTG make it more of a subjective decision in my book. What I see as a natural position for the arm when jumping, for example, someone else may see as unnatural and an attempt to make the body bigger. I would personally go as far as to say the only time handball is 100% factual is when it is in a green no hand ball area because there are no added ifs and buts.

We then have on the weekend the 2 handballs not given in the Manchester United v Spurs and Southampton v Watford games. In both instances the arms were not in a natural position and made the body shape bigger.

Ref Watcher

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Re: Arsenal v Leicester City
« Reply #14 on: Tue 15 Mar 2022 11:43 »
I was rather surprised by Dermot Gallagher's remarks about Lacazette hesitating in his run up for the penalty.  He said: "He stalls his run but he doesn't stop.  The Law is you can't stop your momentum totally.  Once you get to the ball you have to kick it, you can't stop."  The Law says no such thing.  It actually forbids: "Feinting to kick the ball once the kicker has completed the run-up (feinting in the run-up is permitted)." 

I have enough players quoting phantom Laws at me every week without "experts" giving them new ideas.
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