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Author Topic: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …  (Read 451 times)

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Harry H

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Guys/ladies with the state of refereeing across the world in decay, kind of reflected in the World Cup bar Oliver / Orsato/ Lahoz/ Claus / Ramos (until last night) who did well, and now the potential debate of who Collina picks as the World Cup Final ref … rumours are that there literally is no one else remaining bar Marcinak who can realistically do it …… who has never had a European Final and imo is a average ref, a good one but not in the league of Rizzoli/Webb/Pitana … not even close. And potentially we will decorate as a WC Final ref and then in turn the World Best Ref. Not his problem he is only there to do his best.

Imo it should be ONLY Ralphael Claus or Antony Taylor or Efaith from who is left but Claus only 2 games same as Taylor. And with Argentina in final there are now political reasons.

So my point to the post is a great debate on blog law5 attachment to post below and from 15/12/22 at 00:03 a post from the respected blogger “Arbitro” frown Arbitro international

states a true clear fact no longer are referees referees they are match managers no more.

http://law5-theref.blogspot.com/2022/12/cesar-ramos-in-semifinal-france-morocco.html?m=1

Disregard for the LOAF, the new generations (what is coming through) are no longer being shown the art of refereeing and communicating to players, and distributing of justice (as refer to in South America) just more a standard fits all way, with a lack of personality, no real protection to the image of the game, a game now which is not about skill and allowing this to flourish but a desire only to just get through 90 minutes.

Give me Graham Poll / Durkin / Barber / Styles / Webb anyway over the new breed who Adopt this new age way.

I use to fear Poll at Arsenal, but looking back he was a natural referee.

So I Pose this question when you’re out in the parks / Supply Lg / Panal North and South / FL / SG2 and SG1 are you just a match manager ? And happy with this ? Or you a true referee who is there to enjoy the game / allow skill and great technique to flourish and apply sanctions when due to those who put in bad tackles ?? Instead of this over used term “he managed the game well”

Is that in acknowledging the ref has let a lot go unpunished? Allowed bad tackles ? And the skill then stops as the better players no longer wish to play.

Personally I’m happy for the integrity I have shown and have never changed this and will pass on my advice to the new generation to apply Law, but I end with this:

“Imo one of the reasons there is such a shortage now of referees across the world is the lack of quality good advice being offered once qualified across the world referees are sent onto parks at first and almost abandoned (I know there are some good people who mentor those girls / guys but then that is it. So the % who do advance develop really bad habits, and then go into this obsessive over management bubble to which 75%\80% of games are fine, but look at Arg v Hol last week, how many refs could actually deal with that ??? Lahoz had the skills and the 17 cards but even he struggled.

It is an interesting debate and no way have I picked anyone out by name, but more pose the question.

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nemesis

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Guys/ladies with the state of refereeing across the world in decay, kind of reflected in the World Cup bar Oliver / Orsato/ Lahoz/ Claus / Ramos (until last night) who did well, and now the potential debate of who Collina picks as the World Cup Final ref … rumours are that there literally is no one else remaining bar Marcinak who can realistically do it …… who has never had a European Final and imo is a average ref, a good one but not in the league of Rizzoli/Webb/Pitana … not even close. And potentially we will decorate as a WC Final ref and then in turn the World Best Ref. Not his problem he is only there to do his best.

Imo it should be ONLY Ralphael Claus or Antony Taylor or Efaith from who is left but Claus only 2 games same as Taylor. And with Argentina in final there are now political reasons.

So my point to the post is a great debate on blog law5 attachment to post below and from 15/12/22 at 00:03 a post from the respected blogger “Arbitro” frown Arbitro international

states a true clear fact no longer are referees referees they are match managers no more.

http://law5-theref.blogspot.com/2022/12/cesar-ramos-in-semifinal-france-morocco.html?m=1

Disregard for the LOAF, the new generations (what is coming through) are no longer being shown the art of refereeing and communicating to players, and distributing of justice (as refer to in South America) just more a standard fits all way, with a lack of personality, no real protection to the image of the game, a game now which is not about skill and allowing this to flourish but a desire only to just get through 90 minutes.

Give me Graham Poll / Durkin / Barber / Styles / Webb anyway over the new breed who Adopt this new age way.

I use to fear Poll at Arsenal, but looking back he was a natural referee.

So I Pose this question when you’re out in the parks / Supply Lg / Panal North and South / FL / SG2 and SG1 are you just a match manager ? And happy with this ? Or you a true referee who is there to enjoy the game / allow skill and great technique to flourish and apply sanctions when due to those who put in bad tackles ?? Instead of this over used term “he managed the game well”

Is that in acknowledging the ref has let a lot go unpunished? Allowed bad tackles ? And the skill then stops as the better players no longer wish to play.

Personally I’m happy for the integrity I have shown and have never changed this and will pass on my advice to the new generation to apply Law, but I end with this:

“Imo one of the reasons there is such a shortage now of referees across the world is the lack of quality good advice being offered once qualified across the world referees are sent onto parks at first and almost abandoned (I know there are some good people who mentor those girls / guys but then that is it. So the % who do advance develop really bad habits, and then go into this obsessive over management bubble to which 75%\80% of games are fine, but look at Arg v Hol last week, how many refs could actually deal with that ??? Lahoz had the skills and the 17 cards but even he struggled.

It is an interesting debate and no way have I picked anyone out by name, but more pose the question.

Referees doing what is required of them by their employers, administrators, assessors etc are most certainly not to blame. There are few employees, who wish to continue to be employed, who would not follow guidance from their employers.

The blame lies just about everywhere else. Administrators, national and international associations, governing bodies etc are all subject to reasonable accusations of self-interest, often commercially based.

The players and coaches are not blameless either with their win at all costs approach to the game.
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ajb95

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For me Poll was an arrogant **** who had a high opinion of himself and thought many did too, but he used his ego to get through games because he wasn’t that good. Styles is one of the worst refs of that era I can remember along with Riley.

I agree with nemesis that the blame lies with national European and international administrators who are far more interested in the greed of a select few (I.e. the top clubs and nations) - and want a piece of the action themselves - which has created referees that are somewhat robotic in nature who can no longer punish SFP/VC or frankly do anything that will spoil the “entertainment” value of the sport. See why why PGMO is owned by PL, a clear conflict of interest.

Secondly there is a societal problem that leads to thousand leaving the profession each year (many of whom are newly qualified) due to the inability to clamp down on serial and serious offenders, who do nothing but promote abuse and violence at football. Again a county and national administration problem.
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dave26

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I thought Alan Wiley was the best if not one of in the era of Poll and Styles , really good man management of games and never afraid to make the big decisions

For me sadly politics have to much control over football and these days it’s politics and not performances that decide appointments
« Last Edit: Thu 15 Dec 2022 19:10 by dave26 »
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Blind Referee

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In my opinion Graham Poll was the best referee we have had since Jack Taylor - respected by players and managers, understood the game and was a great man-manager - a skill very few referees now have

Biggest issue we have now is most young referees who show any sort of potential are moved into the FA CORE program where any natural talent is drummed out of them and they are “coached” to “please” the observer and referee to tick boxes without ever understanding the game or learning how to man-manage - standard of coaching offered is questionable at best

That’s why we aren’t producing the standards of referees we have in the past
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rustyref

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In my opinion Graham Poll was the best referee we have had since Jack Taylor - respected by players and managers, understood the game and was a great man-manager - a skill very few referees now have

Biggest issue we have now is most young referees who show any sort of potential are moved into the FA CORE program where any natural talent is drummed out of them and they are “coached” to “please” the observer and referee to tick boxes without ever understanding the game or learning how to man-manage - standard of coaching offered is questionable at best

That’s why we aren’t producing the standards of referees we have in the past

Apart from the facts don't quite match the narrative, in that England have two of the top FIFA and UEFA referees at the moment.

I agree to an extent about coaching, but a good coach will just hone a referee's core skills and make him or her better that way, not try to completely change how they referee.  Of course, there is an expectation about how referees operate, and much less chance of getting "mavericks" as in the past, but that doesn't mean we don't and won't create world class referees.
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Blind Referee

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We have two very good Refs at the moment yes, but after that ? Michael and Anthony “came through” before CORE and developed naturally

The point I was making was about the type and quality of coaching we have -that’s the issue and concern

Harry H

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Gents you all offer up some great talking points and debates !!

From “it now just a business / Entertainment” which is a true point raised, to the one about FA Core was excellent, it so true that anyone who shows a % of promise is moved onto this, drilled down to be shown a mandate of what is expected and then you have a production line of almost very similar referees, and then the days of the personalities getting through like previous years is slim to 0.

And those referees only get found out when they go a game that requires a tough approach or a firm hand (Like Hol v Arg) which again I thought Lahoz did well.

On the WC Subject it does show how much politics is a driving force … and how little power Collina has, start of tournament excellent all time wasting and lost time was given by more stoppage time, which obviously the President didn’t like, so for the last 16 to the Semi final we have been back at 3-6 max ! I wonder how much longer Collina will dedicate himself to his role.

But to sum this up I would love to see an image of refereeing in 2/3 years from now, because I don’t feel like I have seen any new qualified officials yet this season and we are half way through our UK domestic season. The passion that I once loved and cared for has eradicated in front of my eyes.