Author Topic: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary  (Read 612 times)

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Acme Thunderer

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A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 08:41 »
I suspect there will be comment on the crowd trouble at last night's game. However, I ought to say now that I thought the Spanish referee Hernandez had a good game. Hungary penalty was correct although I've seen them not given, Hernandez did not fall for any of the diving from players of both sides, he looked fit and was up with play, and he stayed in the background, allowing the players to make their various contributions to what was a thoroughly entertaining game with a fair result. I suspect Hernandez is not Spain's No 1 ref, but he and his team acquitted themselves well last night. Well done!   

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DBLTFC

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #1 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 09:16 »
Is there not a case for an indirect free kick rather than a penalty?

ARF

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #2 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 09:35 »
Is there not a case for an indirect free kick rather than a penalty?
From the clip I've seen, I think there is contact but I can't tell for certain. Referee obviously thought there was, so to my mind VAR would need to clearly show there wasn't contact in order to recommend a review to give an indirect free kick instead of the penalty.
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Leggy

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #3 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 10:43 »
Is there not a case for an indirect free kick rather than a penalty?
From the clip I've seen, I think there is contact but I can't tell for certain. Referee obviously thought there was, so to my mind VAR would need to clearly show there wasn't contact in order to recommend a review to give an indirect free kick instead of the penalty.

I do not believe there was contact, but VAR may not have been able to prove that to overrule. 

The over-exaggerated player reaction made up the referees' mind though as he appeared not to be going to initially whistle, only doing so when he believed the Hungarian player was badly injured.  He was not, of course; and having secured the penalty (probably unjustified) and the yellow card (entirely unjustified) made a full and speedy recovery.

Job (deception?) done and goal scored.  No England player can complain though, because they would have done the same and there will probably be examples of them doing the same this weekend ......

Mikael W

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #4 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 12:24 »
I wrote an analysis as to why awarding the penalty (clip: streamable.com/puw10a) was the wrong decision:

https://imgur.com/a/gAzf4ve

---

I suspect there will be comment on the crowd trouble at last night's game. However, I ought to say now that I thought the Spanish referee Hernandez had a good game. Hungary penalty was correct although I've seen them not given, Hernandez did not fall for any of the diving from players of both sides, he looked fit and was up with play, and he stayed in the background, allowing the players to make their various contributions to what was a thoroughly entertaining game with a fair result. I suspect Hernandez is not Spain's No 1 ref, but he and his team acquitted themselves well last night. Well done!   

Thanks for this report, I wanted to watch the game but wasn't able to - you described his style very well. :)

Hernández Hernández isn't even in the Elite category yet, but I really like him as a ref and think he has high potential. His last UEFA game went really well - very challenging setting with a big observer (Fenerbahçe vs. Olympiakós; Rizzoli) - and in case of a good performance last night, he is increasing his arguments all the while to get a (IMO deserved) CL debut this season.
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dave26

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #5 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 12:38 »
I absolutely 100% agree with the Hungarian penalty as plenty of times incidents occur in the penalty area and nothing is given and people say anywhere else on the field that is a Free Kick , the incident for the penalty would be a FK anywhere else on the field therefore in this case a penalty is spot on

As for the rest of game I thought he was very good aswell for the reasons stated by someone else in a earlier post
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Leggy

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #6 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 13:42 »
I wrote an analysis as to why awarding the penalty (clip: streamable.com/puw10a) was the wrong decision:

https://imgur.com/a/gAzf4ve

---

I suspect there will be comment on the crowd trouble at last night's game. However, I ought to say now that I thought the Spanish referee Hernandez had a good game. Hungary penalty was correct although I've seen them not given, Hernandez did not fall for any of the diving from players of both sides, he looked fit and was up with play, and he stayed in the background, allowing the players to make their various contributions to what was a thoroughly entertaining game with a fair result. I suspect Hernandez is not Spain's No 1 ref, but he and his team acquitted themselves well last night. Well done!   

Thanks for this report, I wanted to watch the game but wasn't able to - you described his style very well. :)

Hernández Hernández isn't even in the Elite category yet, but I really like him as a ref and think he has high potential. His last UEFA game went really well - very challenging setting with a big observer (Fenerbahçe vs. Olympiakós; Rizzoli) - and in case of a good performance last night, he is increasing his arguments all the while to get a (IMO deserved) CL debut this season.

If Mikael can quickly produce images to show that the penalty kick decision was incorrect, I am disappointed that the VAR could not do the same.  Surely a frame-by-frame review would show that the - of the four possible decisions, of which the penalty was the "least correct" (my clumsy phrase).  Of the four, an indirect free-kick would have been correct, but they do seem to have gone out of fashion in recent years.

The subsequent yellow card is just another example of a referee bolstering confidence in their decision by cautioning.  When this happens I have a narrative in my head that says:  "I am sure this is the right decision, so sure that I am going to show a yellow card".  I am rarely convinced.

ARF

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #7 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 15:16 »
I wrote an analysis as to why awarding the penalty (clip: streamable.com/puw10a) was the wrong decision:

https://imgur.com/a/gAzf4ve
While I am happy to agree to disagree on what the 'best' decision is for this incident (my decision is still a penalty and a caution), there is one part of your analysis that I must argue about: a) is incorrect in law, assuming there was indeed contact made (which I believe there was, although I've yet to see a photo or video which 100% proves whether there was or wasn't). Law 12 is very clear - "If an offence involves contact, it is penalised by a direct free kick." If there is contact, you cannot give an IDFK here.

Edit: just thought that that would also make option c) incorrect is law too!
« Last Edit: Wed 13 Oct 2021 15:19 by ARF »

bmb

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #8 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 16:20 »
I certainly thought the penalty was correct in real time although now have to think ok maybe not in view of Mikael's analysis.  This is where I really don't understand "clear and obvious error" and why VAR was "correct" to not rule it out - for me this is exactly what at the very least an on field review gets recommended for.  Personally I still think a penalty was correct & would not have complained if it had been given at the other end.  I thought it a very enjoyable game overall, probably more so than the rest of you! We actually turned up and showed more of the spirit that we showed at the Euros. Too little too late but good to see it back. I thought the ref was decent overall. It's the first time, to my knowledge, I have seen him and I liked his quiet, in the background until needed style. As AT said he looked fit & was up with play.  He seemed to be consistent & was fair to both teams.

I will address the crowd issues. Those involved were not Hungarian. That's not me trying to play it down/minimise it or anything like that. The photographs and videos widely available in the media quite clearly show that those who instigated the issues were Polish not Hungarian. There were Polish flags on display and the trouble makers were all wearing Poland scarves, hats, shirts etc. None of them were wearing Hungarian clothing or scarves.  This begs the questions as to why the English FA thought it ok to sell a large portion of the away end to Polish people, via the Wembley ticket office and why the Police and Wembley security staff allowed around 150 Polish 'fans' into the ground in the first place. They did not even attempt to hide the fact that they were Polish and not Hungarian.

Now that said it would not surprise me to find it was a pact between their ultras and our ultras, I'd not put anything past the Carpathian Brigade...

There's a couple of good articles about in terms of the investigation into the members of the Carpathian Brigade & the anti LBGT+ banner: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2021/09/09/meet-the-far-right-fanatics-getting-hungarys-football-team-in-trouble/ and one by Tom who was the founder of the website I am editor of. it is also in the Guardian today https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/carthapian-brigade-hungary-ultras-293385
« Last Edit: Wed 13 Oct 2021 16:22 by bmb »
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rustyref

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #9 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 18:07 »
I didn't think there was any contact, so IDFK would have been the correct outcome.  That said, VAR took an age to check it and that can't have been for whether it was inside the area as that was obvious, so I suspect they have found a slight glancing contact.

Affy_Moose

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #10 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 20:00 »
The arguments looking for a defensive free kick are clumsy and seem to be putting the cart before the horse.

Shaw’s foot is high and is mandated that he consider other players’ welfare, irrespective of whether he expects to play the ball first or not.  “Not giving a player an opportunity to protect himself” is a mantra made very clear by UEFA in the last decade.

If Shaw was in the opposition penalty area and that was part of an overhead kick on goal, it would be a foul, DFK awarded and a caution made.  There is no difference at all with it being in the England penalty area.

ARF

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Re: A J Hernandez, England v Hungary
« Reply #11 on: Wed 13 Oct 2021 21:42 »
The arguments looking for a defensive free kick are clumsy and seem to be putting the cart before the horse.

Shaw’s foot is high and is mandated that he consider other players’ welfare, irrespective of whether he expects to play the ball first or not.  “Not giving a player an opportunity to protect himself” is a mantra made very clear by UEFA in the last decade.

If Shaw was in the opposition penalty area and that was part of an overhead kick on goal, it would be a foul, DFK awarded and a caution made.  There is no difference at all with it being in the England penalty area.
Agreed - completely reasonable for a player to attempt to play a ball at head height using his head, whereas a player using his foot to play a ball at head height should know damn well that there is a risk to the opponent's safety.