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Author Topic: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL  (Read 5787 times)

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Ashington46

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #30 on: Sun 18 Aug 2019 17:42 »
I’ve no problem with the goal yesterday being disallowed. Ball travelled a long way before being flicked on by the hand and giving a significant advantage. No way would Oliver have allowed goal if reviewing it for himself. I think this is strength of VAR, detecting something practically impossible to spot in real time.

Whilst the wording is new, I believe PL clubs agreed this interpretation in 2016 and Mike Riley said over the summer that the handball interpretation would be unchanged from last few seasons.
I absolutely disagree regarding Oliver looking at the replay. Had he done so, you would hope he'd have spotted the shirt pull on the player whose hand it hit.  He was fouled before an accidental handball.  Yes, he could have disallowed the goal, but could have then correctly awarded a penalty.  The whole thing has become farcical.  I also feel that VAR should have spotted the original offence, so it doesn't say much for them.  Poor all round.

In the opinion of the VAR, who is a PG1 official, the only offence committed was a handball which, according to  the new interpretation of the Laws is punishable. I have always said that VAR just introduces another opinion and this was what happened in this case. He only saw the handball and only then after slow motion replays, meanwhile the actual onfield officials had given a goal and all the players had accepted that because there was not even one appeal from a Spurs player that there had been anything untoward.

The media and many fans wanted VAR so they will just have to tolerate its use whether it is right or wrong. Remember that it is to make the game better ---so they tell me ---so just accept it and stop moaning ---because it is the future and gived the pundits something to talk about rather than the really good game which took place!
Referee's decision used to be final!

LateTackle

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #31 on: Sun 18 Aug 2019 19:49 »
I’ve no problem with the goal yesterday being disallowed. Ball travelled a long way before being flicked on by the hand and giving a significant advantage. No way would Oliver have allowed goal if reviewing it for himself. I think this is strength of VAR, detecting something practically impossible to spot in real time.

Whilst the wording is new, I believe PL clubs agreed this interpretation in 2016 and Mike Riley said over the summer that the handball interpretation would be unchanged from last few seasons.
I absolutely disagree regarding Oliver looking at the replay. Had he done so, you would hope he'd have spotted the shirt pull on the player whose hand it hit.  He was fouled before an accidental handball.  Yes, he could have disallowed the goal, but could have then correctly awarded a penalty.  The whole thing has become farcical.  I also feel that VAR should have spotted the original offence, so it doesn't say much for them.  Poor all round.

In the opinion of the VAR, who is a PG1 official, the only offence committed was a handball which, according to  the new interpretation of the Laws is punishable. I have always said that VAR just introduces another opinion and this was what happened in this case. He only saw the handball and only then after slow motion replays, meanwhile the actual onfield officials had given a goal and all the players had accepted that because there was not even one appeal from a Spurs player that there had been anything untoward.

The media and many fans wanted VAR so they will just have to tolerate its use whether it is right or wrong. Remember that it is to make the game better ---so they tell me ---so just accept it and stop moaning ---because it is the future and gived the pundits something to talk about rather than the really good game which took place!
Yes, this is sort of the point though.  Oliver missed the shirt pull and the handball in real time, but came up with the correct decision by default.  Then VAR wades in, banging on about an accidental handball, which Oliver took as fact.  The VAR crew, in their haste to alert the referee, presumably missed the foul completely and therefore misled the referee. 

VAR should give the on-field referee the chance to review his decision, not re-referee incidents.  I believe Oliver, if in full possession of the facts would have either awarded a goal, or - more correctly given this crazy rule - a penalty.  I really don't see how the VAR team can be defended in this case, they only did half a job.

nemesis

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #32 on: Sun 18 Aug 2019 20:33 »

...
Surprisingly inciteful punditry on MOTD about it is unfair to penalise attacking teams for a handball you would not give against the defender
The law was changed to prevent goals being scored off arms when the on field officials could not see (ireland being one i remember)
The handball law coupled with offside is reducing the number of goals, not increasing them

Sometimes their punditry seems just that. However on this occasion I think I know what you meant to say. Homonyms eh !
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Ashington46

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #33 on: Sun 18 Aug 2019 20:38 »
I’ve no problem with the goal yesterday being disallowed. Ball travelled a long way before being flicked on by the hand and giving a significant advantage. No way would Oliver have allowed goal if reviewing it for himself. I think this is strength of VAR, detecting something practically impossible to spot in real time.

Whilst the wording is new, I believe PL clubs agreed this interpretation in 2016 and Mike Riley said over the summer that the handball interpretation would be unchanged from last few seasons.
I absolutely disagree regarding Oliver looking at the replay. Had he done so, you would hope he'd have spotted the shirt pull on the player whose hand it hit.  He was fouled before an accidental handball.  Yes, he could have disallowed the goal, but could have then correctly awarded a penalty.  The whole thing has become farcical.  I also feel that VAR should have spotted the original offence, so it doesn't say much for them.  Poor all round.

In the opinion of the VAR, who is a PG1 official, the only offence committed was a handball which, according to  the new interpretation of the Laws is punishable. I have always said that VAR just introduces another opinion and this was what happened in this case. He only saw the handball and only then after slow motion replays, meanwhile the actual onfield officials had given a goal and all the players had accepted that because there was not even one appeal from a Spurs player that there had been anything untoward.

The media and many fans wanted VAR so they will just have to tolerate its use whether it is right or wrong. Remember that it is to make the game better ---so they tell me ---so just accept it and stop moaning ---because it is the future and gived the pundits something to talk about rather than the really good game which took place!
Yes, this is sort of the point though.  Oliver missed the shirt pull and the handball in real time, but came up with the correct decision by default.  Then VAR wades in, banging on about an accidental handball, which Oliver took as fact.  The VAR crew, in their haste to alert the referee, presumably missed the foul completely and therefore misled the referee. 

VAR should give the on-field referee the chance to review his decision, not re-referee incidents.  I believe Oliver, if in full possession of the facts would have either awarded a goal, or - more correctly given this crazy rule - a penalty.  I really don't see how the VAR team can be defended in this case, they only did half a job.

I totally disagree!! VAR should be scrapped completely and there would be no need for all this discussion because we would be talking about quite a good game of football which Man City won in added time. Not one player appealed for anything in this whole incident and all were convinced that a goal had been scored.
Spurs were dejected, City were elated and anybody who has loved the game since way before the Premier League thought that they invented it was totally mystified how such a goal could be disallowed.

The media-driven Transfer Windows and media-driven VAR are the two worst things introduced into football in modern times.
« Last Edit: Sun 18 Aug 2019 21:54 by Ashington46 »
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Microscopist

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #34 on: Sun 18 Aug 2019 20:43 »
OK, a couple of views from an admittedly City biased perspective - so I'll save you the trouble of posting to tell me that's the case!

1)
IFAB - Law Changes
Quote
Handball    Law 12   
Changes
•Deliberate handball remains an offence
•The following ‘handball’ situations, even if accidental, will be a free kick:
 a) the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm 
 b) a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touches their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity
 c) the ball touches a player’s hand/arm which has made their body unnaturally bigger
 d) the ball touches a player’s hand/arm when it is above their shoulder (unless the player has deliberately played the ball which then touches their hand/ar

We can ignore c) & d)
Does a) apply?  Does the ball go into the goal from Laporte's arm?  I don't think so.  If the goal scoring is delayed beyond the immediate entry of the ball into the goal then b) is not needed.
Does b) apply)  Does Jesus handle the ball - No; does Laporte gain possession of the ball? No.

So does this wording not cover the amendment suggested by RGC?  I think so.

2)
Quote
..Ball travelled a long way before being flicked on by the hand..
Unless you think that this contact constituted the hand ball then the ball actually only moved about a foot before it may have hit the forearm, and probably the arms of both players.



3) As Late Tackle says Oliver should have reviewed it himself particularly in view of the IFAB wording and he could have found two reasons to award a penalty the shirt pull and the handball.  It capped off a pretty sub-standard performance by the referee and VAR.
The missed penalty for the attempted strangulation of Rodri was just an example of the differential awarding of the "benefit of the doubt" throughout the game - compounded by Sterling's yellow card whilst at least two of the four free kicks awarded in City's favour seemed equally deserving of yellow cards, and the fourth actually disadvantaged City as they had regained control of the ball.
Perhaps the most risible decision of all (fortunately of no consequence) was just before half time when Bernardo was flattened from behind by Rose and a free kick awarded to Spurs.

(You may be able to find this action by "Googling "BERNARDO SILVA FAZ LANCE INCRÍVEL | BERNARDO SILVA ..." If I embed the video it will almost certainly be challenged by the copyright holder....)

VAR is not the problem itself but it is highlighting problems both with refereeing consistency and the inadequacy of the current laws to deal the change brought about by technology, and to some extent the increased speed of the game.


« Last Edit: Mon 19 Aug 2019 08:50 by Microscopist »
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Ref Fan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #35 on: Mon 19 Aug 2019 09:19 »
Microscopist - a biased City perspective - I'd never have guessed (this where the funny emoticon should have gone!))

With regard to Law 12, if your analysis is correct, why was the disallowed goal last week by Wolves and City's on Saturday deemed to be correct decisions by most pundits and referees on this forum irrespective of how much they don't like the law or its interpretation?

Can anyone clarify what the VAR (Scott) is expected to tell Oliver in that situation?  Does he say something like "Michael, you have to disallow the goal, there was a hand ball by Laporte in the build up" giving Oliver little option  or " there was a handball that might mean the goal should be disallowed - you might want to take a look yourself"? In which case, is it the referee who decides whether to accept the VAR 'advice' or look at the monitor himself.  I'm confused on the protocol here.

With regard to your other points,  I'm probably in a minority of one who wasn't totally convinced by the first half penalty appeal.  There was certainly at least one arm by Lamela on the attacker but whether that was sufficient contact to justify a penalty to my eyes wasn't clear. What then happened was that the second Spurs player pushed Lamela who went into the City player and they all fell down.  At least that was my viewing of it and presumably VAR did not deem it an obvious error.
Question - would / could VAR have told Oliver, "I think that should have been a penalty", and is the referee entitled to reply that he had a good view of the incident and thought no penalty without looking at the monitor?

However, Microscopist, I have to admit I too was puzzled by the free kick award to Spurs when it appeared to be Rose who was the offender.

With 30 attempts, City should surely have won that game without the controversial intervention of VAR.

As far as VAR is concerned, just a personal opinion, but the Sterling offside decision last week and the disallowed goal for handball on Saturday just don't seem right whatever the current law and interpretation.  Like others, I feel further tweaks would help the game.


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fatso

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #36 on: Mon 19 Aug 2019 09:59 »
I am against VAR as it takes away the spontaneous element of celebrating the goal. As a Brighton fan my view was strengthened by the offside goal on Saturday. Fortunately I called the offside and was not celebrating but I believe it is making our officials poorer as they no longer have to make those decisions so become lazy. Although the offside looked closer on TV than at the game I cannot understand why the assistant did not flag. Brighton would have been several points better off last season, the handall winner by Cardiff is one example, but I still would rather they got rid of VAR although I know it won't happen. It is great viewing for the TV viewers but not for those who pay their money to experience the spontaneity and jubilation of celebrating goals.
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kelxref

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #37 on: Mon 19 Aug 2019 13:57 »
Firstly, I thought that the EFL VAR protocol was to avoid on field reviews except in very rare circumstances (I think I saw a quote from Neil Swarbrick saying that in all the trials last season there would have been only one OFR!), so I think Michael Oliver had no choice but to take the VAR advice. However, personally I think this EFL tweak to the system used abroad and in international competitions is misguided.

On Saturday, whilst it may have taken a little longer it would have been better if the referee had reviewed the incident on screen for himself and taken into account how the the “handling” had occurred. In this case (and I say this as a Spurs fan!) I think there is sufficient wiggle room in the current law (certainly around the word control) to have let the goal stand or even if he did disallow it, to better sell the decision to the players as he has reviewed the incident for himself.

Secondly, the other tweak to VAR that the EFL has made is to get assistants to flag immediately for offside and then get the referee to delay the whistle until any goal scoring opportunity has finished. I cannot think of anything to commend this. You can tell players until you’re blue in the face to play to the whistle and not the flag but in practice it is unlikely to happen. And even if they did, it does nothing to overcome the criticism stated on these boards that late flags leading to potential unnecessary injuries as the whistle is still delayed. Late in the Chelsea v Leicester game yesterday, Leicester put the ball in the net. The assistant flagged immediately the player received the ball, the commentators called the flag before he scored and the Chelsea goalkeeper seemed to me to make a half hearted attempt to save presumably as the flag had been raised. Oliver Langford did not blow until after the ball entered the net (as the protocol dictates). Whilst VAR did confirm the offside, I shudder to think of the protests if the offside were overturned. I can’t see any advantage in this change to VAR - although happy to be informed if my criticism is misguided.

LateTackle

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #38 on: Mon 19 Aug 2019 16:57 »
I’ve no problem with the goal yesterday being disallowed. Ball travelled a long way before being flicked on by the hand and giving a significant advantage. No way would Oliver have allowed goal if reviewing it for himself. I think this is strength of VAR, detecting something practically impossible to spot in real time.

Whilst the wording is new, I believe PL clubs agreed this interpretation in 2016 and Mike Riley said over the summer that the handball interpretation would be unchanged from last few seasons.
I absolutely disagree regarding Oliver looking at the replay. Had he done so, you would hope he'd have spotted the shirt pull on the player whose hand it hit.  He was fouled before an accidental handball.  Yes, he could have disallowed the goal, but could have then correctly awarded a penalty.  The whole thing has become farcical.  I also feel that VAR should have spotted the original offence, so it doesn't say much for them.  Poor all round.

In the opinion of the VAR, who is a PG1 official, the only offence committed was a handball which, according to  the new interpretation of the Laws is punishable. I have always said that VAR just introduces another opinion and this was what happened in this case. He only saw the handball and only then after slow motion replays, meanwhile the actual onfield officials had given a goal and all the players had accepted that because there was not even one appeal from a Spurs player that there had been anything untoward.

The media and many fans wanted VAR so they will just have to tolerate its use whether it is right or wrong. Remember that it is to make the game better ---so they tell me ---so just accept it and stop moaning ---because it is the future and gived the pundits something to talk about rather than the really good game which took place!
Yes, this is sort of the point though.  Oliver missed the shirt pull and the handball in real time, but came up with the correct decision by default.  Then VAR wades in, banging on about an accidental handball, which Oliver took as fact.  The VAR crew, in their haste to alert the referee, presumably missed the foul completely and therefore misled the referee. 

VAR should give the on-field referee the chance to review his decision, not re-referee incidents.  I believe Oliver, if in full possession of the facts would have either awarded a goal, or - more correctly given this crazy rule - a penalty.  I really don't see how the VAR team can be defended in this case, they only did half a job.

I totally disagree!! VAR should be scrapped completely and there would be no need for all this discussion because we would be talking about quite a good game of football which Man City won in added time. Not one player appealed for anything in this whole incident and all were convinced that a goal had been scored.
Spurs were dejected, City were elated and anybody who has loved the game since way before the Premier League thought that they invented it was totally mystified how such a goal could be disallowed.

The media-driven Transfer Windows and media-driven VAR are the two worst things introduced into football in modern times.
I think you are making a valid point.  I was referring to the situation as it stood, with VAR in play.  However, if this is the chaos and injustice that VAR is bringing to the game, I am being persuaded that it contributes nothing useful.  We are two games into the Premier season and it is riven with controversy already.

The whole point of it was to let officials review 'howlers'.  It is now seemingly being used to re-referee incidents without the referee himself.  That should never happen - VAR should invite the referee to have another look and if necessary correct a howler.  If we are to have VAR the referee should always have the final say.  Otherwise you may as well call everything from a portacabin 100 miles away.

We are not helped by ludicrous law tweaks like this handball incident.  As I have said before, the more they tinker the worse it gets.  I'm sure VAR wasn't intended to be like this.
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Microscopist

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #39 on: Mon 19 Aug 2019 20:10 »
Hi Ref Fan,  always a pleasure to chat with you electronically.  I realise that it will come as a shock to you that behind this balanced, thoughtful and logical facade lies a partisan spirit!

First half penalty - yes two Spurs players were involved but I don't think that that is much of a defence.




I think this tackle would be outlawed in Rugby let alone football.  When you contrast this with the challenge for which Sterling was shown a yellow card then it is hard not to think that different standards were applied in each case.

Quote
b) a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touches their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity

The comma introduces a slight ambiguity in meaning but that still gives leeway for the law to be interpreted inthe spirit of rewarding rather than punishing good football.  The way VAR is being used is like someone being given the tools to repair a run down house and concentrating on oiling the door hinges rather than tackling the damp and dry rot.  So instead of looking for mm offside decisions and near imperceptible ball to hand contact it should be tackling evening out standards for penalties and diving.

Talking of the spirit of the game I cannot understand how anyone who loves football could reward the brilliant skill of Bernardo before being clattered by giving a free kick against him.  He should have spent Saturday night wondering what on earth he is doing.

« Last Edit: Wed 21 Aug 2019 19:27 by Microscopist »
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bmb

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #40 on: Mon 19 Aug 2019 21:13 »
The way VAR is being used is like someone being given the tools to repair a run down house and concentrating on oiling the door hinges rather than tackling the damp and dry rot.  So instead of looking for mm offside decisions and near imperceptible ball to hand contact it should be tackling evening out standards for penalties and diving.

This!!!
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Readingfan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #41 on: Tue 20 Aug 2019 02:35 »
Excellent post kelxref.

I think there are pros and cons to the approach regarding pitchside monitors and assistants raising offside flags.

On balance, I think I prefer the PL's approach towards assistants raising the flag. I think sometimes in UEFA/FIFA competitions the assistants come across as being indecisive (even though they aren't really) and it is frustrating for people when it seems a move is being let go when there is actually a clear offside offence and I think it is often taken too far in these competitions. I don't really buy the argument about defenders potentially stopping in the PL. They've all been briefed to play to the whistle so if they fail to do so then it's just an individual defensive error as far as I'm concerned, just as if they fail to mark properly at a corner or switch off to a quick free-kick. I won't have any sympathy for a team who concedes a goal due to stopping because of an offside flag and if it happens once I'm pretty sure it won't happen again!

Overall, I think that raising the flag makes the assistants actively make decisions and gives a clear visual indication to everyone of the likely decision.

As for pitchside monitors, I don't think that any decision that has been changed by VAR so far in the PL would have had a different outcome if the referee had gone to look at the monitor. Again, I think this has often been overused abroad, either with the referee being sent to look at a very marginal incident which shouldn't have been reviewed in the first place and they take an age to make a decision or where the decision is very obvious and reviewing it is not really required. Both waste time unnecessarily and I don't think really suit the general speed and tempo of Premier League football.

I think the most important thing is that the on-field referee is comfortable with the final decision being made so if they want to look for themselves then they should be permitted to do so but I think the PL are probably right in their context in looking to limit this.

Overall, I think that the general standard of officiating in the PL at the start of the season has generally been pretty good. The VAR decisions changed so far have been marginal calls that you could easily understand the officials missing in real-time. I would guess over time we will see more obvious incorrect decisions that fall under the real howler category as we have seen in previous PL seasons.


Ref Fan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #42 on: Tue 20 Aug 2019 08:39 »
Good Morning Microscopist.

Your pleasure is reciprocated despite our partisanship being in different tribes of the great city of Manchester.  My problem though is that I tend to blame my team for its shortcomings rather than directing my ire towards the referee and VAR. Last evening for example, there was I complaining about the length of time it was taking for United to decide who was going to take the penalty, and not about the VAR taking almost as long to conclude the Wolves goal wasn't offside.

Back to your point and the non-penalty award.  I think my wording was "not totally convinced".  If a penalty had been awarded - either by Oliver or VAR - I wouldn't have argued it was blatantly wrong. I just didn't think it was as nailed on as many were suggesting.  And at this point I must plead age, deteriorating eyesight and brain (and various other faculties for that matter) and rest what you may understandably believe is my feeble case. 
 
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bmb

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #43 on: Tue 20 Aug 2019 15:29 »
On balance, I think I prefer the PL's approach towards assistants raising the flag. I think sometimes in UEFA/FIFA competitions the assistants come across as being indecisive (even though they aren't really) and it is frustrating for people when it seems a move is being let go when there is actually a clear offside offence and I think it is often taken too far in these competitions. I don't really buy the argument about defenders potentially stopping in the PL. They've all been briefed to play to the whistle so if they fail to do so then it's just an individual defensive error as far as I'm concerned, just as if they fail to mark properly at a corner or switch off to a quick free-kick. I won't have any sympathy for a team who concedes a goal due to stopping because of an offside flag and if it happens once I'm pretty sure it won't happen again!

Overall, I think that raising the flag makes the assistants actively make decisions and gives a clear visual indication to everyone of the likely decision.

I agree with this. It stops the stupid punditry comments regarding late flags as well or at least trims them down a bit. One comment from pundits I can never resist screaming at the TV it's not late you idiot, he was waiting to see if in an offside position actually became offside within the LOTG or words to that effect! This is something that often makes AR's appear to be indecisive or late to react/ simply reacting to a shout or hands raised from a defender because so many (fans/players/pundits/managers) don't understand the huge difference between a player being in an offside position and actually being offside within the criteria of the LOTG.

I think this has often been overused abroad, either with the referee being sent to look at a very marginal incident which shouldn't have been reviewed in the first place and they take an age to make a decision or where the decision is very obvious and reviewing it is not really required.

Could part of the length of time at times be that they are trying to find what the VAR ref is going on about? You know standing there thinking, nope still can't see it...
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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #44 on: Tue 20 Aug 2019 16:13 »
Excellent post kelxref.

I think there are pros and cons to the approach regarding pitchside monitors and assistants raising offside flags.

On balance, I think I prefer the PL's approach towards assistants raising the flag. I think sometimes in UEFA/FIFA competitions the assistants come across as being indecisive (even though they aren't really) and it is frustrating for people when it seems a move is being let go when there is actually a clear offside offence and I think it is often taken too far in these competitions. I don't really buy the argument about defenders potentially stopping in the PL. They've all been briefed to play to the whistle so if they fail to do so then it's just an individual defensive error as far as I'm concerned, just as if they fail to mark properly at a corner or switch off to a quick free-kick. I won't have any sympathy for a team who concedes a goal due to stopping because of an offside flag and if it happens once I'm pretty sure it won't happen again!

Overall, I think that raising the flag makes the assistants actively make decisions and gives a clear visual indication to everyone of the likely decision.

As for pitchside monitors, I don't think that any decision that has been changed by VAR so far in the PL would have had a different outcome if the referee had gone to look at the monitor. Again, I think this has often been overused abroad, either with the referee being sent to look at a very marginal incident which shouldn't have been reviewed in the first place and they take an age to make a decision or where the decision is very obvious and reviewing it is not really required. Both waste time unnecessarily and I don't think really suit the general speed and tempo of Premier League football.

I think the most important thing is that the on-field referee is comfortable with the final decision being made so if they want to look for themselves then they should be permitted to do so but I think the PL are probably right in their context in looking to limit this.

Overall, I think that the general standard of officiating in the PL at the start of the season has generally been pretty good. The VAR decisions changed so far have been marginal calls that you could easily understand the officials missing in real-time. I would guess over time we will see more obvious incorrect decisions that fall under the real howler category as we have seen in previous PL seasons.

I think you make some very valid points that made me reflect on my comments. I certainly agree that the "most important thing is that the on-field referee is comfortable with the final decision being made" and on that thought, I would like to think they could make an OFR if they felt it necessary to completely understand the VAR and "sell" it to the players on the pitch. I just get the feeling that the EFL are pushing against this and virtually ruling out OFLs and letting VAR make the decision on both factual and non-factual decisions, so making speeding up the game the paramount aim. And whilst I agree that the way VAR is working in Europe probably uses OFRs too frequently, I think we might be pushing it to the other extreme. As as aside, I note from another board that in a Bundesliga game last weekend, a goal was disallowed for handball based upon VAR input alone. So other countries may be amending their own protocols as they gain more experience on how VAR is working.

On the "when to flag for offside" issue, I agree that the method adopted by the EFL makes the assistant make a call and not tend to use VAR like the old lamppost analogy i.e. to lean on rather than light the way. However, following my example at Chelsea on Sunday, I think it will still need the first overruled offside flag and the protests that are likely to follow, to ram home the point of "playing to the whistle"!

These are early days for VAR in the EFL and as it has in Germany, Italy, Spain and France, it will take time for all sections of the game to get used to it. I agree in the first two weeks of the season the officials have been generally good, and the major controversies are more to do with a law change rather than VAR.

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