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Author Topic: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL  (Read 5788 times)

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Ashington46

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #60 on: Thu 22 Aug 2019 17:45 »
Presumably the officials didn't give the handball on Saturday at the time simply because they didn't see it. As has been said, it isn't really a matter of opinion under the current interpretation.

Not only the officials, there were over 54000 others at the match who never saw it either. Perhaps everyone needs to go to Specsavers ---there are other opticians available  :D

I would argue this is a strength of VAR - think back to the Martin Skrtel handball in the last minute of Liverpool V Man City in 2014. Nobody spotted it at the time or appealed. Gary Neville said in commentary what a great header it was. The replays then revealed he'd punched it away. If Liverpool hadn't dropped points after that then they would have gone on to win the title. Nowadays in the Premier League, VAR would be able to help the referee out and give them the opportunity to make a correct decision that they would have had no chance of making in real time. That's why it seems many of the referees want it!

That being the case, why is it not being used throughout the English Football League ---are these games less important than the Premier League?
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Readingfan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #61 on: Thu 22 Aug 2019 18:48 »
No, but there is obviously less money available the lower down the football pyramid you go. It clearly isn't viable to have VAR at every single game of football played globally, just as it isn't viable to have goal-line technology or neutral assistants or whatever else you choose, but I think it is a good objective to introduce these aids as widely as possible. Quite possibly we will see VAR introduced into the Championship at least in due course - whether it will go further than that any time soon, who knows?
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LateTackle

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #62 on: Fri 23 Aug 2019 10:03 »
Or .... we just go back to accepting the premise that the ball hitting an arm /hand accidentally, not caused by any deliberate action, can, on occasion, lead to an advantageous outcome anywhere on the field, including the scoring / creating of a goal.  Whatever happened to 'rub of the green'?!
Having given it due consideration, I have to agree with this conclusion.  Handball has always required some 'mens rea' to be an offence.  The simple fact that a ball hits the arm was never enough to penalise - anywhere on the pitch.  As I suggested previously, tinkering just makes things worse. 

If a ball accidentally hits the arm or hand (Ball to hand, ref!) then it  should be within the gift of the referee to interpret it as such.  After all, that's what he's there for.  VAR should be a tool to assist when he's not sure of a big call, not a man in a hut refereeing the game from 100 miles away!
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ajb95

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #63 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 16:27 »
Bad challenge at Leicester by teilemans on Wilson. Went to VAR and not even a free kick!  ??? :o

Carter

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #64 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 17:09 »
This is getting ridiculous.

Just what does it have to take for a decision to be overturned (other than offsides)

Get rid of it, it is a shambles.

Readingfan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #65 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 17:11 »
This is getting ridiculous.

Just what does it have to take for a decision to be overturned (other than offsides)

Get rid of it, it is a shambles.

Currently VAR seems to be upholding incorrect decisions rather than correcting them as it should do.

The answer is surely is to improve the quality of VAR officials so that the decisions are corrected rather than abandoning any attempt to change.
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Readingfan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #66 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 17:12 »
Bad challenge at Leicester by teilemans on Wilson. Went to VAR and not even a free kick!  ??? :o

VAR can't just recommend a free-kick or a yellow card - VAR has to deem it a clear red card to get involved (I haven't seen the incident yet but it sounds like there might have been a strong argument for a red.)

bmb

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #67 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 17:30 »
Bad challenge at Leicester by teilemans on Wilson. Went to VAR and not even a free kick!  ??? :o

VAR can't just recommend a free-kick or a yellow card - VAR has to deem it a clear red card to get involved (I haven't seen the incident yet but it sounds like there might have been a strong argument for a red.)

https://twitter.com/SamHeapCoaching/status/1167818933157580800

Have a look for yourself!
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Microscopist

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #68 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 18:52 »
Quote
Have a look for yourself!

As was the case with the ridiculous free kick awarded against Bernardo the video clip was quickly withdrawn at the request of the copyright holder.  In the case of Bernardo a clip showing the 10 seconds or so where he bamboozled three Spurs defenders just before he was clattered by Rose did not need to be removed.

Ref Fan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #69 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 20:50 »
I saw the clip before it was removed and it looked a RC offence to me.  Phil Thompson was apoplectic on Sky's Saturday football.

Subjective decisions being left with the referee is all very well, but subjective key match decisions can be blatantly wrong in the eyes of the vast majority of pundits, fans and ex-referees as has been demonstrated in several matches over the past couple of weeks.

An interesting reply on Hackett's twitter blog alleged that Kane had said that Mike Dean told him he had not seen the incident clearly last week and therefore could not give a penalty.  Firstly, was that comment by Kane reported in the press do we know?

IF it is true that Mike Dean explained to Kane he had a poor view, isn't that where VAR should intervene and Dean ask for help?  How can it be a proper subjective decision if the referee didn't see an incident clearly?
 

Mackem ref

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #70 on: Sat 31 Aug 2019 23:45 »
With regards to the challenge at Leicester today, is this not a case in point of why a pitch side monitor is important. Surely Bankes should be able to look at that and deem whether it is a red or not! It’s irritating that the PL have to think they are better than everyone else and develop their own brand of VAR which is as useless as a chocolate fire guard!

Minutes spent agonising over multimeters offside is nowhere near as important as trying to stamp out bad challenges from the game. Keeping 22 players on the pitch is not a referee’s priority - if a player is deserving of a red card, then they should be disciplined appropriately.
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TheThingFromLewes

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #71 on: Sun 01 Sep 2019 00:17 »
Kevin Friend didn’t endear himself to the Villa players this afternoon... as for the ugly scenes in the crowd... disgraceful.

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #72 on: Sun 01 Sep 2019 00:31 »
I made some strong comments about VAR last week and I'm absolutely going to reiterate them again now. The officials using VAR have had an absolute shocker today. The way they are using VAR for subjective decisions is a disgrace and just plainly wrong!

Basically, if the referee has seen the incident then VAR will not intervene. Awful tackles, clear penalties all seen by the on-field referee and called blatantly wrong - and VAR will not get involved because the referee has "seen" the incident. What absolute rubbish! This completely misses the point of having VAR in the first place! If this is the way they are going to continue using it then I would rather not have it. Far too much importance is placed on the opinion of the referee on the field. It is simple, if in the opinion of the VAR referee, the on-field referee has made a mistake then overturn it. This whole nonsense about the referee having "seen" the incident is just a way of making the whole system more complicated and the officials tying themselves in knots!

And don't get me started on my team (Watford's) decision at Newcastle. We are desperate for a win got ourselves ahead and conceded a goal that should blatantly have been ruled out. I completely understand how the referee missed it real time. But when the goal goes in VAR check's it. After just one slow motion replay you can clearly see the ball strike the hand of the Newcastle attacker. This is not a subjective decision. The rule is clear. In these instances the goal is simply ruled out. I don't know what Craig Pawson the VAR ref could have been looking at. I'm not going to say it cost us two points as there was one half to go, but it was certainly a game changing decision that went against us and I don't know why. The VAR ref would have seen the slow motion replay, the rule is clear and not subjective, and they still managed to get it wrong. Unbelievable!!
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Ashington46

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #73 on: Sun 01 Sep 2019 09:53 »
I made some strong comments about VAR last week and I'm absolutely going to reiterate them again now. The officials using VAR have had an absolute shocker today. The way they are using VAR for subjective decisions is a disgrace and just plainly wrong!

Basically, if the referee has seen the incident then VAR will not intervene. Awful tackles, clear penalties all seen by the on-field referee and called blatantly wrong - and VAR will not get involved because the referee has "seen" the incident. What absolute rubbish! This completely misses the point of having VAR in the first place! If this is the way they are going to continue using it then I would rather not have it. Far too much importance is placed on the opinion of the referee on the field. It is simple, if in the opinion of the VAR referee, the on-field referee has made a mistake then overturn it. This whole nonsense about the referee having "seen" the incident is just a way of making the whole system more complicated and the officials tying themselves in knots!

And don't get me started on my team (Watford's) decision at Newcastle. We are desperate for a win got ourselves ahead and conceded a goal that should blatantly have been ruled out. I completely understand how the referee missed it real time. But when the goal goes in VAR check's it. After just one slow motion replay you can clearly see the ball strike the hand of the Newcastle attacker. This is not a subjective decision. The rule is clear. In these instances the goal is simply ruled out. I don't know what Craig Pawson the VAR ref could have been looking at. I'm not going to say it cost us two points as there was one half to go, but it was certainly a game changing decision that went against us and I don't know why. The VAR ref would have seen the slow motion replay, the rule is clear and not subjective, and they still managed to get it wrong. Unbelievable!!

With FIFA now wanting to introduce 'robot' Assistant Referees, how long will it be before they decide that onfield officials are no longer required at the top level and the whole game can be officiated by someone looking at a TV screen.
The game which I have loved is being ruined by too much meddling.
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Ref Fan

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Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
« Reply #74 on: Sun 01 Sep 2019 10:57 »
While the focus has been on the non-intervention of VAR for what many would claim were clear and obvious errors, it has to some degree masked one or two sub par performances from the referees themselves already this season.

Paul Tierney was poor last week at OT, and it doesn't sound as if he was great at West Ham yesterday.  Kevin Friend has been heavily criticised on a separate match topic and questions raised on Graham's Scott's decisions at Newcastle, both yesterday.  If the original expectation was that VAR would bail a referee out if he made a bad decision (wasn't there an interview with Taylor and Oliver in the Times earlier in August which alluded to this?), is it possible it is making referees slightly less likely to make the tough calls?  Even if that were the case, surely they must now realise the bar (by whoever) has been set too high?
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