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Poll

We sensed this is a great debate so why not put it to vote!

Definitely a penalty - Welldone VAR
11 (20.8%)
Not for me - VAR's fault
39 (73.6%)
I don't care either way - You win some, you lose some
3 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 53

Voting closed: Sat 13 Jul 2024 10:29

Author Topic: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands  (Read 2089 times)

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Lionator27

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #30 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 22:39 »
I just canít agree.

The defenderís foot is moving near 90 degrees across the way the attacker is facing / kicking. If the defender was moving some way towards the attacker as part of the charge down / block then I would understand it and say maybe you run the risk.

What is this more of?
   The attacker kicking into the defenderís foot as part of a follow through.
    The defender kicking into the attacker as part of challenging them for the ball.


Think you're painting a different picture to what actually happened.

Only one player kicks his opponent and it certainly isn't Dumfries. Normal attempt at a block and just nothing to see until Kane rolls around for twenty minutes to insinuate that there was a deliberate kick from his opponent.
English players tonight were definitely falling around to try to get decisions, perhaps the furore unleashed by our media had some effect.

We (England) have been particularly good at this all tournament. Going back to the first game, Orsato gave us a lot of very soft free kicks although I notice he didnít against Switzerland. Tonight, penalty aside, I think almost every single 50/50 decision went in our favour. Not complaining as a fan, but as a referee, I donít think he had a good night at all.
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Ref Fan

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #31 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 22:40 »
It may well be the case that if Zwayer had awarded a penalty, VAR wouldn't have intervened for an OFR.  But I really don't understand how a no-penalty decision can be seen as a clear and obvious error.

Thought Zwayer had a very good first half and was ok in the second until the last 15 minutes when he started to look less relaxed as things heated up somewhat.

As for the football, England were much improved in that first 45 minutes, but for a good part of the second half, both teams seem gave me the impression of not wanting to take any risks and being prepared for extra time and penalties.  A good strike to win it though. 
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ARF

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #32 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 22:44 »
Only one player kicks his opponent and it certainly isn't Dumfries. Normal attempt at a block and just nothing to see until Kane rolls around for twenty minutes to insinuate that there was a deliberate kick from his opponent.
English players tonight were definitely falling around to try to get decisions, perhaps the furore unleashed by our media had some effect.
"Normal attempt at a block" going in studs first? Nah.
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Ashington46

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #33 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 22:53 »
Only one player kicks his opponent and it certainly isn't Dumfries. Normal attempt at a block and just nothing to see until Kane rolls around for twenty minutes to insinuate that there was a deliberate kick from his opponent.
English players tonight were definitely falling around to try to get decisions, perhaps the furore unleashed by our media had some effect.
"Normal attempt at a block" going in studs first? Nah.

Please advise how you are supposed to block a shot in  that situation. Having played over 700 games at a decent level and never once having been cautioned, in spite of being a defender,  I must have been getting away with murder for my 42 year playing career. I suppose that I was lucky in playing in an era when normal contact was accepted as just that and there was no outside interference because we all accepted the decisions by the officials, even if we didn't agree with every one.
JUst to clarify, the defender is actually side on to the ball and it is only because Kane's leg is bent in trying to shoot that he kicked the defender,
Referee's decision used to be final!
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ARF

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #34 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:03 »
Please advise how you are supposed to block a shot in  that situation. Having played over 700 games at a decent level and never once having been cautioned, in spite of being a defender,  I must have been getting away with murder for my 42 year playing career. I suppose that I was lucky in playing in an era when normal contact was accepted as just that and there was no outside interference because we all accepted the decisions by the officials, even if we didn't agree with every one.
JUst to clarify, the defender is actually side on to the ball and it is only because Kane's leg is bent in trying to shoot that he kicked the defender,
He didn't block the shot. The attacker played the ball. He didn't touch the ball. He went in studs first, missed the ball, and put his studs into the attacker's foot.

Having seen plenty of football from the 70s and 80s, you never being cautioned does not surprise me in the least. Thankfully, the game has changed.
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RCG

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #35 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:05 »
Was it not Portugal who won the Euros without having won a match in normal time?
No one looks back and says mediocre, just says winners
If (and its a big IF) we win on Sunday no one will care how mediocre we have been either
Back to back Euro finals. First major final on foreign soil. Unbeaten in the Championships - we seem to be doing ok
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Ref25

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #36 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:14 »
I just canít agree.

The defenderís foot is moving near 90 degrees across the way the attacker is facing / kicking. If the defender was moving some way towards the attacker as part of the charge down / block then I would understand it and say maybe you run the risk.

What is this more of?
   The attacker kicking into the defenderís foot as part of a follow through.
    The defender kicking into the attacker as part of challenging them for the ball.


Think you're painting a different picture to what actually happened.

You can think that, but itís just not correct and ironically the picture you have posted rather than painted supports what I have said (direction of attacker towards centre of goal and direction of defender towards the technical areas).

A still image in this situation isnít all that helpful (other than for point of contact or the point Iíve just made). It doesnít show you how the contact came to occur and I note it is after the point of contact with the ball by the attacker. This one just a few frames before shows something different and is still after the ball was struck.

https://static.independent.co.uk/2024/07/10/22/2d5a33e3b6e27ff259b2eebb144d046fY29udGVudHNlYXJjaGFwaSwxNzIwNzI4OTUy-2.76811036.jpg

Ashington46

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #37 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:24 »
Please advise how you are supposed to block a shot in  that situation. Having played over 700 games at a decent level and never once having been cautioned, in spite of being a defender,  I must have been getting away with murder for my 42 year playing career. I suppose that I was lucky in playing in an era when normal contact was accepted as just that and there was no outside interference because we all accepted the decisions by the officials, even if we didn't agree with every one.
JUst to clarify, the defender is actually side on to the ball and it is only because Kane's leg is bent in trying to shoot that he kicked the defender,
He didn't block the shot. The attacker played the ball. He didn't touch the ball. He went in studs first, missed the ball, and put his studs into the attacker's foot.

Having seen plenty of football from the 70s and 80s, you never being cautioned does not surprise me in the least. Thankfully, the game has changed.

Did you play in the 70s and 80s at any decent level? Just curious, because the game is still the same and I played through to 2004 without ever being cautioned, I was also officiating at a lower level in those days as well and since 2004, with essentailly the same Laws of the Game.

QUestion which is still relevant is which player actuall kicked his opponent. IS kickking your opponent not an offence these days?
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Whistleblower

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #38 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:32 »
Thought Zwayer was quite average, nothing more or less than that though he seems to have a good rapport with the players. Penalty was debatable ( I lean to thinking not ) but the protocol for VAR involvement ( a clear and obvious error ) was trashed.  Imagine the howls of protest if that decision had gone against England. Most 50:50 decisions went to England.

There are two scenarios; one is that England's name is on this trophy and so by a mixture of good fortune and fairly uninspired football but with crucial goals scored, the victory will be theirs or the luck will run out and hubris will lead to nemesis. Sunday evening will tell us. I shall be in Paris watching the match. I wonder who the French will be supporting ?
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ARF

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #39 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:35 »
If the defender was moving some way towards the attacker as part of the charge down / block then I would understand it and say maybe you run the risk.
https://x.com/i/status/1811119292533883241 - go to 36 seconds and watch the defender.
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Lionator27

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #40 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:43 »
To make matters worse for the VAR, it looks like the ball hit Sakaís hand as the ball went through to Kane in the first place.

ARF

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #41 on: Wed 10 Jul 2024 23:44 »
Did you play in the 70s and 80s at any decent level? Just curious, because the game is still the same and I played through to 2004 without ever being cautioned, I was also officiating at a lower level in those days as well and since 2004, with essentailly the same Laws of the Game.

QUestion which is still relevant is which player actuall kicked his opponent. IS kickking your opponent not an offence these days?
With all due respect, it feels like every single time you post on here you're complaining about how different/worse the game is nowadays to when you were involved - perhaps that says more about you than it does modern football.

To answer your question, the defender challenged the opponent in a reckless manner, hence a penalty and caution being given.
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ajb95

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #42 on: Thu 11 Jul 2024 07:03 »
Did you play in the 70s and 80s at any decent level? Just curious, because the game is still the same and I played through to 2004 without ever being cautioned, I was also officiating at a lower level in those days as well and since 2004, with essentailly the same Laws of the Game.

QUestion which is still relevant is which player actuall kicked his opponent. IS kickking your opponent not an offence these days?
With all due respect, it feels like every single time you post on here you're complaining about how different/worse the game is nowadays to when you were involved - perhaps that says more about you than it does modern football.

To answer your question, the defender challenged the opponent in a reckless manner, hence a penalty and caution being given.

You still havenít answered the crucial question - are you avoiding it, or deep down do you know you are talking nonsense?! When a defender goes to block a shot with their foot, where else are they supposed to put said foot?
Dumfries should have stood still and let Kane shoot. Note to all defenders: donít bother sticking your feet up to block shots in case you touch the striker, it might be a penalty. Never heard so much drivel and coming from people who are supposed to be referees too

The only way this goes is banning tackling, which is on the decline anyway
« Last Edit: Thu 11 Jul 2024 16:35 by ajb95 »
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John Treleven

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #43 on: Thu 11 Jul 2024 08:08 »
VAR team was all GER too, each on their 8th or 9th appointment in their respective positions

Bastian Dankert GER
Christian Dingert GER
Marco Fritz GER

Just imagine the furore in the English press if that decision had been given at the other end

German conspiracy and Zwayer's history would have all been thrown in the mix
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Blind Referee

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Re: Felix Zwayer England Netherlands
« Reply #44 on: Thu 11 Jul 2024 08:58 »
If 100 ďnoneĒ football people watch that, 100 ďnoneĒ football people would say the attacker has kicked the defender ? To try and justify and fit a narrative to there being a foul is a sad indictment of where refereeing and the game is currently - we may as well ban any sort of physical contact and play netball rules now.

Beautiful game? Not any more, played by preening, dishonest players overseen by referees and administrators that are slowly destroying the spectacle we all once loved - everything that used to be good about the game, the speed, the tempo, the physical nature is being eroded away and leaving us with something which a great number of people are now walking away from
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