Author Topic: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020) (Read 3169 times)

Hendo · « **Reply #15 on:** Sat 29 Feb 2020 16:39 »

Quote from: referee12 on Fri 28 Feb 2020 21:12

I agree rob jones and Darren England for promotion and var should be available at all grounds from the 3rd rd onwards and not in places where it isn’t

Really pleased to see Darren England “rewarded” for the most shocking decision of the season in the 3rd round game involving Derby County by being appointed to this round. Clearly forgiven and **** ups count for very little if your face fits

Fengunner · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun 01 Mar 2020 17:26 »

I see Arsenal have Mike Dean - AGAIN? Isn't this all getting a bit irregular?

If there are only 6 referees that one club can have then the answer is more refs, not imposing/granting the few onto one club over and over.

It really makes me wonder if sometimes, the officials who get the same teams regularly, become just a bit biased against them to avoid any sense of favouritism the other way?

referee12 · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun 01 Mar 2020 18:54 »

my apologies rusty ref for getting it wrong again i just think it would be better if var was available and you can have joint decisions and not just 1

rustyref · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun 01 Mar 2020 19:20 »

It would of course be ideal, but there are practicalities. Having VAR at a ground isn't just a case of a truck turning up, there will be leased network lines needed back to Stockley Park and these typically have lead times of months rather than weeks. There just wouldn't be time needed between the rounds to get it installed.

Also look at referee numbers. Let's assume that 10 of the 32 ties are at PL grounds, with the current system you would need 148 officials, with VAR at all the ties you would need 192 officials, where are those extra 44 coming from? There's also the cost angle, the clubs are charged a significant amount of money per game where VAR is in use. That's fine if someone like Hartlepool are away at Man Utd as they will get it back through their share of the gate receipts, but if they are home to Exeter they would actually lose money.

Whistleblower · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun 01 Mar 2020 19:30 »

Quote from: Hendo on Sat 29 Feb 2020 16:39

Quote from: referee12 on Fri 28 Feb 2020 21:12
I agree rob jones and Darren England for promotion and var should be available at all grounds from the 3rd rd onwards and not in places where it isn’t

Really pleased to see Darren England “rewarded” for the most shocking decision of the season in the 3rd round game involving Derby County by being appointed to this round. Clearly forgiven and **** ups count for very little if your face fits

While not wishing to comment on the alleged *** ups because I haven't seen the footage, I can certainly assent to the proposition that Darren England's face "fits".

QuoCob · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun 01 Mar 2020 21:50 »

Quote from: Hendo on Sat 29 Feb 2020 16:39

Quote from: referee12 on Fri 28 Feb 2020 21:12
I agree rob jones and Darren England for promotion and var should be available at all grounds from the 3rd rd onwards and not in places where it isn’t

Really pleased to see Darren England “rewarded” for the most shocking decision of the season in the 3rd round game involving Derby County by being appointed to this round. Clearly forgiven and **** ups count for very little if your face fits

It wasn't that bad...

Readingfan · « **Reply #21 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 08:34 »

Quote from: Bakis on Wed 26 Feb 2020 09:48

Surely 'all in' would be impractical on cost and installation time grounds, and 'all out' would raise objections from those playing at grounds where it is available? Unless and until VAR reaches the Extra Preliminary Round there will always be a junction point, all that will change over time is where this is. And after all it is no more than an additional resource not a requirement (ducks for cover).

I agree. They're not in a position, certainly currently, to do it in all games from an early round. The options then are either don't use it at all (in which case there will inevitably be a clear error in the final or whatever and people will say 'why not use VAR if you can?' or you use it where you can, which is what they've done.)

At least the current system means the use of VAR is dictated by the draw. It's like how some teams play away to Man City and some are at home to Grimsby Town.

TVOS · « **Reply #22 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:10 »

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 02 Mar 2020 08:34

Quote from: Bakis on Wed 26 Feb 2020 09:48
Surely 'all in' would be impractical on cost and installation time grounds, and 'all out' would raise objections from those playing at grounds where it is available? Unless and until VAR reaches the Extra Preliminary Round there will always be a junction point, all that will change over time is where this is. And after all it is no more than an additional resource not a requirement (ducks for cover).

I agree. They're not in a position, certainly currently, to do it in all games from an early round. The options then are either don't use it at all (in which case there will inevitably be a clear error in the final or whatever and people will say 'why not use VAR if you can?' or you use it where you can, which is what they've done.)

At least the current system means the use of VAR is dictated by the draw. It's like how some teams play away to Man City and some are at home to Grimsby Town.

Not really, as that's an uncontrollable situation, based on a random draw.

Your other logic is also flawed. By the time of the final, there is only one match and only two teams playing and therefore, they are equally likely to benefit or otherwise from VAR. It has no effect on who they could play in the next round, for example, so it should be used.

However, the system as it is at present benefits some matches, but not others, which can't be right.

Readingfan · « **Reply #23 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:28 »

Quote from: TVOS on Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:10

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 02 Mar 2020 08:34
Quote from: Bakis on Wed 26 Feb 2020 09:48
Surely 'all in' would be impractical on cost and installation time grounds, and 'all out' would raise objections from those playing at grounds where it is available? Unless and until VAR reaches the Extra Preliminary Round there will always be a junction point, all that will change over time is where this is. And after all it is no more than an additional resource not a requirement (ducks for cover).

I agree. They're not in a position, certainly currently, to do it in all games from an early round. The options then are either don't use it at all (in which case there will inevitably be a clear error in the final or whatever and people will say 'why not use VAR if you can?' or you use it where you can, which is what they've done.)

At least the current system means the use of VAR is dictated by the draw. It's like how some teams play away to Man City and some are at home to Grimsby Town.

Not really, as that's an uncontrollable situation, based on a random draw.

Your other logic is also flawed. By the time of the final, there is only one match and only two teams playing and therefore, they are equally likely to benefit or otherwise from VAR. It has no effect on who they could play in the next round, for example, so it should be used.

However, the system as it is at present benefits some matches, but not others, which can't be right.

The same random draw also plays a part in dictating which teams have VAR and which don't. If the draw had been Sheffield United V Reading this week then both teams would have had VAR but because it's Reading V Sheffield United then it won't be used.

I also don't really agree with your logic for it being ok to use VAR in the final but not before. If you're happy for Manchester City (for instance) to win the final after a VAR decision but for Manchester United to get knocked out in the fifth round because there's no VAR, then why aren't you also happy for Chelsea benefit from a VAR decision in the fifth round but for Manchester United to get knocked out because there's no VAR. Manchester United are still out of the cup either way and some teams have benefited from VAR.

If Reading get knocked out tomorrow night because of an offside goal that would have been corrected with VAR then I'm not fussed if Spurs or Norwich go through because VAR gets the decision correct, because we're still out either way.

TVOS · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:35 »

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:28

Quote from: TVOS on Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:10
Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 02 Mar 2020 08:34
Quote from: Bakis on Wed 26 Feb 2020 09:48
Surely 'all in' would be impractical on cost and installation time grounds, and 'all out' would raise objections from those playing at grounds where it is available? Unless and until VAR reaches the Extra Preliminary Round there will always be a junction point, all that will change over time is where this is. And after all it is no more than an additional resource not a requirement (ducks for cover).

I agree. They're not in a position, certainly currently, to do it in all games from an early round. The options then are either don't use it at all (in which case there will inevitably be a clear error in the final or whatever and people will say 'why not use VAR if you can?' or you use it where you can, which is what they've done.)

At least the current system means the use of VAR is dictated by the draw. It's like how some teams play away to Man City and some are at home to Grimsby Town.

Not really, as that's an uncontrollable situation, based on a random draw.

Your other logic is also flawed. By the time of the final, there is only one match and only two teams playing and therefore, they are equally likely to benefit or otherwise from VAR. It has no effect on who they could play in the next round, for example, so it should be used.

However, the system as it is at present benefits some matches, but not others, which can't be right.

The same random draw also plays a part in dictating which teams have VAR and which don't. If the draw had been Sheffield United V Reading this week then both teams would have had VAR but because it's Reading V Sheffield United then it won't be used.

I also don't really agree with your logic for it being ok to use VAR in the final but not before. If you're happy for Manchester City (for instance) to win the final after a VAR decision but for Manchester United to get knocked out in the fifth round because there's no VAR, then why aren't you also happy for Chelsea benefit from a VAR decision in the fifth round but for Manchester United to get knocked out because there's no VAR. Manchester United are still out of the cup either way and some teams have benefited from VAR.

If Reading get knocked out tomorrow night because of an offside goal that would have been corrected with VAR then I'm not fussed if Spurs or Norwich go through because VAR gets the decision correct, because we're still out either way.

Why do they have a fifth official for the final and not other rounds?

Why are the last two rounds played on neutral grounds but the others aren't?

What would happen if some Premier League grounds had VAR and others didn't, thereby affecting league fixtures?

This could go round in circles for ever.

As the Small Faces said, it's got to be all or nothing!

Readingfan · « **Reply #25 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:39 »

But saying you're happy to use VAR in the final but not earlier rounds is not All or Nothing - it is just a different version of some games having VAR and some not.

TVOS · « **Reply #26 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:59 »

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:39

But saying you're happy to use VAR in the final but not earlier rounds is not All or Nothing - it is just a different version of some games having VAR and some not.

Where did I say I was "happy"? You're just splitting hairs.

It makes no odds to me when they use it, but for the competition to retain any sense of propriety, it has to be seen to be fair to all its competitors.

However, by the time we reach the final, commonsense dictates we are at the last two teams, nobody else is affected and the trophy is at stake, so let's try to make this particular game as 'error free' as possible, if only for integrity.

Every team in the competition up to then would have played by exactly the same rules and regulations and the showpiece game deserves everything to be right and proper, as far as possible.

And if this is all known in advance, would anyone in their right mind really object?

Readingfan · « **Reply #27 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 16:09 »

I'd argue that if they can get things right and devoid of errors as far as possible in as many games as possible they should go for that and that all teams know the regulations in advance now - it is just that it's 'VAR will be used at any match at a PL ground' rather than 'VAR will be used at the final'.

JohnCoyle · « **Reply #28 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 16:11 »

Quote from: TVOS on Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:59

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 02 Mar 2020 15:39
But saying you're happy to use VAR in the final but not earlier rounds is not All or Nothing - it is just a different version of some games having VAR and some not.

Where did I say I was "happy"? You're just splitting hairs.

It makes no odds to me when they use it, but for the competition to retain any sense of propriety, it has to be seen to be fair to all its competitors.

However, by the time we reach the final, commonsense dictates we are at the last two teams, nobody else is affected and the trophy is at stake, so let's try to make this particular game as 'error free' as possible, if only for integrity.

Every team in the competition up to then would have played by exactly the same rules and regulations and the showpiece game deserves everything to be right and proper, as far as possible.

And if this is all known in advance, would anyone in their right mind really object?

What you're suggesting has been done for the Carabao Cup for the last couple of seasons (in that case semis and final) and no-one seems to have any great objections to that. I think it's a better solution than having some games in a round with VAR and some not. The worst is where you have VAR for the first game and no VAR for the replay, or vice-versa.

Hendo · « **Reply #29 on:** Mon 02 Mar 2020 16:26 »

Quote from: Whistleblower on Sun 01 Mar 2020 19:30

Quote from: Hendo on Sat 29 Feb 2020 16:39
Quote from: referee12 on Fri 28 Feb 2020 21:12
I agree rob jones and Darren England for promotion and var should be available at all grounds from the 3rd rd onwards and not in places where it isn’t

Really pleased to see Darren England “rewarded” for the most shocking decision of the season in the 3rd round game involving Derby County by being appointed to this round. Clearly forgiven and **** ups count for very little if your face fits

While not wishing to comment on the alleged *** ups because I haven't seen the footage, I can certainly assent to the proposition that Darren England's face "fits".

Footage here - check 1 min 30 secs approx. No free kick given.
if there has been a worse decision all season then i haven't seen it

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Author Topic: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020) (Read 3169 times)

Hendo

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

Fengunner

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

referee12

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

rustyref

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

Whistleblower

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

QuoCob

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

Readingfan

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

TVOS

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

Readingfan

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

TVOS

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

Readingfan

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

TVOS

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

Readingfan

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

JohnCoyle

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)

Hendo

Re: The Emirates FA Cup – Fifth Round Proper (Mon 2nd – Thu 5th MAR 2020)