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Author Topic: Men & Women's FA Cup Final - Sat 15th & Sun 15th MAY 2022  (Read 3076 times)

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Whistleblower

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Hard to think of many more Kent referees on the National List in the last 40 years. I think for a time Paul Alcock and John Moules lived in the County and Phil Crossley of course. Can't think of any more off the top of my head but there may be some.

bmb

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Fred whose surname escapes me but I adored for many a year! He was referee on one of bmb jr's mascot outings in one of his significant games. 400th game maybe. I can picture him but the more I try and remember his surname, the more I realise senility is kicking in!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

RCG

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You thinking of Essex Boi Fred Graham?

RCG

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Phil Crossley is a lovely man, perfect gentleman, great referee on his day. Came to reffing a little too late to go all the way.

bmb

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You thinking of Essex Boi Fred Graham?

I am indeed! Always had a huge soft spot for him.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

Whistleblower

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Combining my two interests of football refereeing and geography I have looked at the residences of Cup Final referees over the last 45 years. ( I know it's sad but there you go ) It shows what I had hitherto suspected that in senior appointments there has been a noticeable drift northwards in recent years. Here are my findings

In the last 15 years there has been only 1 FA Cup Final Referee to live south of Birmingham ( Lee Probert ) and 13 from north and 1 level ( Marriner )
In the 15 years before that there were 10  Referees coming from south of Birmingham and 5  from north
In the 15 years before that there were 9 referees coming from south of Birmingham and 6 from north.

The results from the most recent 15 years are skewed slightly because Taylor and Oliver, both north, were appointed twice.

When one looks at likely appointees to the FA Cup Final in the next few years  Tierney, Attwell, Bankes, A Madley, England, Coote then all are north except Attwell who is level with Birmingham.

I haven't done an analysis of present SG1 referees but I am sure most of them are from the north of Birmingham.

There appears to be a clear northern drift. I wonder why ? I have heard it said a few times ( and by people who have moved location from north to south and vice versa )that when a referee is making their way through the ranks then the Assessments and Observations are more kindly and positive in the north than the south.  I don't know. It may be that there is more referee investment in the north than the south.  Or it may all just be a statistical quirk. Any thoughts ?


Leggy

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Fred Graham??  I thought he was an Essex Boy.

The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.

TheThingFromLewes

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Barry Knight ?!?! 😀


I was thinking more in terms of FA Cup Final Referees and I don't suppose Barry Knight ever came close to that honour. He was I presume affiliated to Kent FA through his residence in Orpington, now in Greater London but historically Kent. As to whether he was a good 'un, I retain a neutral stance.

Mr Knight was the official in charge of the infamous Dyer and Bowyer punch up at Newcastle v Villa.

I think he’s the only official to get his circle ⭕️ card out three times in one match to one side?

bmb

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Fred Graham??  I thought he was an Essex Boy.

The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.

Taking into consideration my level of geography - Essex is Kent!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

Leggy

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Fred Graham??  I thought he was an Essex Boy.

The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.

Taking into consideration my level of geography - Essex is Kent!

Do you realise the trouble you can cause for saying such things?  Take yourself off to the naughty step, assuming you can find it!!
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bmb

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Fred Graham??  I thought he was an Essex Boy.

The late Paul Alcock did reside in Maidstone for a few years and Phil Crossley was mostly in Blackheath and a London FA referee.

Taking into consideration my level of geography - Essex is Kent!

Do you realise the trouble you can cause for saying such things?  Take yourself off to the naughty step, assuming you can find it!!


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Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

mauricelapin

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Hard to think of many more Kent referees on the National List in the last 40 years. I think for a time Paul Alcock and John Moules lived in the County and Phil Crossley of course. Can't think of any more off the top of my head but there may be some.

A little over 40 years, but I recall that Keith Walker hailed from Maidstone. I always liked his style, but have a feeling that one Derek Dougan did not.....
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rustyref

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Combining my two interests of football refereeing and geography I have looked at the residences of Cup Final referees over the last 45 years. ( I know it's sad but there you go ) It shows what I had hitherto suspected that in senior appointments there has been a noticeable drift northwards in recent years. Here are my findings

In the last 15 years there has been only 1 FA Cup Final Referee to live south of Birmingham ( Lee Probert ) and 13 from north and 1 level ( Marriner )
In the 15 years before that there were 10  Referees coming from south of Birmingham and 5  from north
In the 15 years before that there were 9 referees coming from south of Birmingham and 6 from north.

The results from the most recent 15 years are skewed slightly because Taylor and Oliver, both north, were appointed twice.

When one looks at likely appointees to the FA Cup Final in the next few years  Tierney, Attwell, Bankes, A Madley, England, Coote then all are north except Attwell who is level with Birmingham.

I haven't done an analysis of present SG1 referees but I am sure most of them are from the north of Birmingham.

There appears to be a clear northern drift. I wonder why ? I have heard it said a few times ( and by people who have moved location from north to south and vice versa )that when a referee is making their way through the ranks then the Assessments and Observations are more kindly and positive in the north than the south.  I don't know. It may be that there is more referee investment in the north than the south.  Or it may all just be a statistical quirk. Any thoughts ?

Several theories on this.  A lot of people move to the South, especially the South East and London, when they are young but then move away when settling down and starting a family, not being able to afford the SE house prices.  Don't know if that applies to any of the current SG1, but it certainly applies to loads of L3s and above over the years who came through the ranks down here before moving away.

Also, for years the promotion system has been skewed in favour of the North, albeit accidentally.  As a L3 in the South you would have almost always been refereeing step 3 and 4 games, in many leagues further North they would be refereeing step 5.  As it is a combined merit table that was never a level playing field, I know from experience that refereeing step 3 is generally a lot more challenging than step 5.  Thankfully that has now been sorted out, so my theory will be proved or otherwise in years to come when we see if there has been a shift in the balance. 

One of the big problems I had as an L3 in London was travel.  I worked in the City, and that was well before working from home became the norm, and it caused me real problems as before going to the game I'd first have to go home and get the car.  Luckily I had an understanding boss, but it was still draining as I had to be up at 5 to get in for 6.30 so that I could leave in time to get to the game, which could easily be a 2 hour, or more for National League games, drive away.  Its no surprise that I saved all of my worst performances for midweek games, as often I was knackered before even blowing a whistle.  It took a period out through injury to make me realise I couldn't sustain that, and I know of several other London based referees who felt the same way, in that they couldn't continue in both their job and senior refereeing.
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Leggy

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I would 100% support RustyRefs last paragraph.  I also worked in the City and my worst performances were certainly midweek.  I was rarely "late" to a game, but if I was struggling for time it would always be midweek.  Relying on Southern Trains to get me home from work so that I could then venture out (often using the M25) for a game was a high-risk activity.

I don't know if that embeds an advantage for referees from the midlands and the north, but it was hard work and without an understanding boss would have caused me to quit sooner than I did.

I do also think that there is a skewing of top non-league sides towards the south, meaning the referees in this part of the world had more challenging games and fewer opportunities to "shine".  We always believed, however, that "the system" worked and that the cream would rise to the top.
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Claretman

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Barry Knight ?!?! 😀


I was thinking more in terms of FA Cup Final Referees and I don't suppose Barry Knight ever came close to that honour. He was I presume affiliated to Kent FA through his residence in Orpington, now in Greater London but historically Kent. As to whether he was a good 'un, I retain a neutral stance.

Mr Knight was the official in charge of the infamous Dyer and Bowyer punch up at Newcastle v Villa.

I think he’s the only official to get his circle ⭕️ card out three times in one match to one side?
If i remember right that night, villa were 1-0 up against 11, scored two more against 10 bothe penalties by barry one after taylor was sent off but failed to add to the score when newcastle were reduced to 8.